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Mr. Straw: The hon. Gentleman raises an important, if detailed, point. I confess that I am not as familiar with article 108 as he is, but I now have a copy in front of me. There is a case for greater transparency in the way in which the ECB operates, and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has in any event made proposals for improvements in the monetary mechanisms inside the European Union. If, however, it is felt that there are ways in which we can improve article 108 or its successor at the IGC, let us have those proposals. If there is a strong point to be made on issues such as these, we have allies elsewhere in the Convention and among other Governments.
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow): I do not want to disrupt the Foreign Secretary's flow, but there is one matter that should be considered with regard to the relations between this Parliament and the European institutions. It is the question of fraud in the Community. As a former member of the Budget Sub-Committee of the European Parliament, when it was indirectly elected, I know that this is a very difficult subject. There is not only the case of Andreasen; there are various others. The Public Accounts Committee of this House should surely have some locus in examining these difficult matters. I have received a long letter from the Chairman of the Committee, saying that it could not look at the particular case of a whistleblower who, in the serious opinion of his lawyers, had a good case against the Commission. Could the role of the Public Accounts Committee in such circumstances be considered?
Mr. Straw: My hon. Friend certainly makes a strong point. I cannot promise that I can deliver on his request, but I will promise to look into it closely. I recall that 20 years ago, when I was a junior Front-Bench spokesman on the Treasury, with my right hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook), I looked closely at the level of fraud—and the paucity of detection of fraud—in the European Union. The situation has got a bit better since then, but it is still not satisfactory.
The achievement of the European Union over the past 50 years is something that people take for granted these days. Its case is often put in material terms—the end of customs, for example, and the single market in goods and services—and these are clearly important. But—to pick up on the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South (Mr. Marshall)—beyond that is what the Union has done to help to make a reality of human rights and democracy. That point is often missed when making the argument for the EU.
When I was a young man, eastern Europe was surrounded by the iron curtain, and there were three right-wing dictatorships in western Europe, in Spain, Portugal and Greece. What the EU has done—first in those three countries, then in eastern Europe—is to help
to make a reality of human rights and democracy in those nations. Above and beyond that—as we can now see, 50 years on—the Union's most profound achievement has been to secure an absence of war.I think about this matter a great deal, and I guess that because European nations have historically found their relationships with one another difficult, we resort to the most convoluted argument to avoid violence. That in turn has been translated into lengthy texts and sometimes totally opaque practices in the European Union. In some ways, that is a small price to pay for the avoidance of the killing fields of the Somme or Verdun, but these days it is not such a convincing excuse for unacceptable practices, particularly for those who have no direct memory of European war.
The European Union can, therefore, seem unjustifiably rule-bound and bureaucratic—it is a far from perfect organisation—so I hope that the combined effect of the Convention's proposals, its scrutiny by Government and Parliament, and the outcome of the IGC, will be a better functioning EU. But let me reassure the House about some things that will not happen. The result of any new constitution will not be to alter the fundamental relationship between the EU and its member states. Foreign and defence policy will remain intergovernmental. We will not accept qualified majority voting on tax, social security or criminal law and procedures, and "federal" will not feature as either a word or a concept.
Malcolm Bruce (Gordon): Given that the Convention now appears to propose that the Union as a whole should accede to the European convention on human rights—a proposal that the Government have resisted up to now—does the Foreign Secretary now accept that that would be the best way to ensure commonality of human rights law rather than conflict? Will the Government now accept that proposal?
Mr. Straw: We are examining that issue, but there is already clear acknowledge of the European convention on human rights in the consolidated treaties, so this is not a completely new proposal.
Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham): I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary for the way in which he is involving Parliament a great deal in this process. However, does he not see the danger in the proposal in the current draft to have a very powerful unelected Foreign Minister for the EU, who would be senior to him and who would have the right to represent us in all important matters and to use our United Nations seat whenever he saw fit? Surely this represents a fundamental change in the relationship between us and the EU.
Mr. Straw: I have genuine respect for the right hon. Gentleman, and I tried to put him right yesterday in a meeting outside the House: this is simply not the case. Whether such a Minister would be senior to me would depend on the reputation he managed to achieve; he certainly would not be senior in terms of seniority.
Mr. Straw: Thank you very much. If it were me, that would be fine; there would be no problems at all.
As for this canard, this confection, that we are going to lose our seat on the United Nations Security Council, let me tell the House that we are not. The United Nations is an association of sovereign nation states, and only nation states can exercise votes in the UN. The EU is an association of nation states; it is not a sovereign nation state.
Mr. Straw: I cannot predict what is going to happen in 100 years. I can, however, tell the right hon. Gentleman the terms of any proposition that will come before the House under this Government, and we will never vote for any suggestion of the European Union becoming a federal superstate. We are simply not going to do that.
Mr. Menzies Campbell (North-East Fife): In considering the relationship between the United Nations and European states, will the Foreign Secretary also have regard to the fact that the constitution of the United Nations is of course its charter, and that only the United Nations itself can alter its own charter?
Mr. Straw: There is another point that I have made often enough about the UN charter. Returning again to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South, there is a beautifully drafted document that is very clear and much smaller than the consolidated treaties and the IGC's result, but at least that result will be better than the current treaties.
Sir Michael Spicer (West Worcestershire): The Foreign Secretary said that foreign policy would remain intergovernmental. That is the opposite of what the Convention is proposing. Does he intend to veto those Convention proposals at the IGC?
Mr. Straw: With respect, it is not the opposite of what is said in the draft constitution, which makes it clear that, while there is some subsidiary QMV, the main foreign policy decisions to achieve a common position have to be taken by unanimity. We object to some aspects of the proposals relating to a European Foreign Minister, and we will seek to have them changed. One of them, which is rather important, is in relation to the European Foreign Minister's so-called double-hatting. We believe that it should be made crystal clear that, although he or she may be a Vice-President of the Commission, he or she is not subject to the collective responsibility of the Commission, but is answerable solely to the Council.
The other area that the hon. Gentleman may have been thinking about is in draft article I-24, wherein, not only in relation to foreign policy but more generally, a power is sought, by unanimity in a six-month consultation period, to shift certain new areas to QMV. We do not find that acceptable and we will seek to change it.
Mr. Straw: If I may, I will make some progress, as I have already been on my feet for 22 minutes.
As for the charter of rights, the draft treaty includes a statement of rights. I think that our citizens should be told the rights that they have vis-à-vis the European institutions, and we could accept such a statement provided that it does not extend the powers of the Union. This, like much else, will depend on the precise terms of the final package, but in the Convention we negotiated important changes in articles II-51 and II-52, which help to define the scope and meaning of the charter's provisions. For example, member states would be affected only when implementing agreed Union law, and the net effect of our proposals is to ensure that the charter will not extend the Union's competence or powers.
As the House will see in a 10-point summary that I placed in the Library today, the treaty creates a framework for a Union of nations, not a superstate. I draw attention to six points in the draft treaty that emphasise the role of the nations. First, the treaty will include a statement that competences not explicitly conferred on the Union in the treaty remain with the nation states. Secondly, the draft specifies that the Union shall act only if the objectives cannot "sufficiently be achieved" by the nations. Thirdly, the draft grants a new power to national Parliaments to ask the Commission to review its proposals. Fourthly, the text includes a statement that national leaders, in the shape of the European Council, shall provide the union with its political direction and priorities. Fifthly, the draft creates a new post of a chair or president to drive forward the work of the European Council. Sixthly, the text includes a reference to the fact that the current veto on foreign policy will remain.
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