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Mr. MacShane: The hon. Gentleman refers to Vichy. We can see the real nature of the Conservative party on the Opposition Benches: anti-French, anti-European and unpleasant about everyone with whom we must deal as our partners. I am sure that those remarks will be well noted in Paris and well noted by the conservative parties of France.
Mr. MacShane: I promised the right hon. Gentleman that I would give way and I always keep my promises.
My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) cited a wonderful quote from Mr. Amato, who said that the constitutional conventioneers wanted a boy and ended up with a girl. [Laughter.] I believe that I am quoting my hon. Friend correctly. As the father of four daughters, I find that comment wonderfully encouraging but, of course, our party has allowed women to have some place—although not enough—on the Benches of the House. When the Conservative party reflects the population of the country, it might actually come forward with some serious points.
The right hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Mr. Campbell) talked about the necessity of reforming the common agricultural policy, and I agree with him. We need to take forward that argument, but not to the British people—we are all agreed. The hon. Member for Rochford and Southend, East (Sir Teddy Taylor) referred to my noble Friend Baroness Amos and her denunciation of the CAP. We need to have the argument in French, Italian, German and Spanish. I invite the Opposition to play the European game seriously and talk to their opposite numbers on the continent if they want to change the CAP, but they are so isolated from them—perhaps because they have no opposite numbers—that they cannot do that.
Mr. Redwood: Will the Minister give way?
Mr. MacShane: I am about to deal with the right hon. Gentleman's point. In the press release that he distributed and in his speech he referred, I think, to a revolutionary and dangerous new point in the constitutional treaty and set out what the constitutional treaty was putting before the people of Europe. His press release states:
- "Member states shall actively and unreservedly support the Union's common foreign and security policy in a spirit of loyalty and mutual solidarity and shall comply with the acts adopted to the Union in this area."
- "THEY SHALL REFRAIN FROM ACTION CONTRARY TO THE UNION'S INTEREST OR LIKELY TO IMPAIR ITS EFFECTIVENESS."
Mr. Redwood: The whole point is that that policy would then be justiciable under the European Court of Justice. I said that in relation to the wide-ranging aims of the new document, which is revolutionary. Will the Minister stop this travesty and understand that the Conservatives want to negotiate a much better deal for the British people? What is he going to negotiate out of this document so that we still have a country left to govern?
Mr. MacShane: It is exactly that sort of language that makes the case for those of us who want to stay in the EU. The right hon. Gentleman will know as well as I do that the common foreign and security policy is explicitly excluded, even in the existing draft constitution, from the Court's remit.
My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. Davidson) asked whether the language referring to ever-closer union would be in the constitutional treaty. I am happy to tell him that it will not. Instead, language is used that refers to Europe in the context of helping
- "the weakest and most deprived; that it wishes to remain a continent open to culture, learning and social progress; and that it wishes to deepen the democratic nature of its public life, and to strive for peace, justice and solidarity throughout the world".
Mr. Davidson: Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. MacShane: I am afraid that I cannot. There will be another long debate on the Convention and we can exchange views then.
I agree with the hon. Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant). It is important to get his comment on the record because he is a Conservative Member. He said that the EU is an agent for good. Let it be quoted from Hansard that at least one Conservative MP said that.
The question again and again was whether the British people will have a say. Yes, they will have a vote. They will have a veto. They will vote at the next general election on whether they support a party or parties that believe in British membership of the EU or whether they support the Conservative party. As we heard today, the Conservative party is not only opposed to Europe—it does not even make cheap remarks about France—but calls for a renegotiation that will mean withdrawal from Europe. As long as this Government are in office we will speak up for Britain in Europe. The British people will vote for the party that says yes to Europe. They will vote no to the party that wants us out of Europe and express their veto that way.
Derek Twigg (Halton): I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
FINANCE AND SERVICES COMMITTEE
- That Keith Hill be discharged from the Finance and Services Committee and Mr Bob Ainsworth be added.—[Derek Twigg.]
- PETITION
Cliffe Airport
7 pm
Bob Spink (Castle Point): With the consultation period on the future development of air transport in the south-east coming to an end in a couple of weeks on 30 June, it is appropriate that I present a petition against the Government's inappropriate proposal to build an airport at Cliffe, which is just across the Thames from Canvey Island and the rest of my constituency. The good people of Castle Point are deeply afraid of the damage that that proposal would do to them, so they have raised a petition in the following terms:
- To the honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled:
The Humble Petition of concerned residents of South East Essex and surrounding areas, including Kate Mariapa, Cllr Dorothy Best and others sheweth
The Government's Cliffe Airport option, with its flight path over South Essex, operational 24 hours a day, would cause unacceptable damage to people's quality of life and to the environment.
Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your honourable House will urge the Government to rescind its Cliffe Airport option at the earliest possible moment.
And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
Kittle Post Office
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Ainger.]
7.1 pm
Mr. Martin Caton (Gower): I cannot remember how many times I have sat in the Chamber and heard hon. Members from all political parties and from all parts of the United Kingdom pay tribute to the central role that the local post office plays in our communities, particularly our rural communities. Indeed, I have done so myself before this evening, on more than one occasion.
Whether we are talking about the contribution of specific post offices in our constituencies or, more generally, about the role of the wider post office network, there is a consensus across the House that British post offices are vital facilities, especially to many of our most vulnerable citizens, and that they need defending and developing. In recent years, faced with the prospect of post office closures, the Government and the House have spent a fair amount of time speaking about how we can find new forms of business for our local post offices to help make or keep them viable. Increasingly, we see the provision of banking services spreading through the network, the general practitioner experiment in Leicestershire, which does not seem to have been rolled out yet, rate relief schemes, and even direct financial support.
All those schemes are welcome and represent a clear recognition of the importance of the local post office. It plays a crucial social and economic role, offering 170 different services and products, its existence often making the local shop viable when otherwise it would not be. Sub-post masters and their post offices also play an invaluable part in many communities by providing support for vulnerable residents, including elderly and disabled people. Often, they will interpret official letters, find lost property, take messages and offer emotional as well as practical support. It is such a postmaster and his wife about whom I shall speak briefly this evening, but before doing so, I shall set the situation in the village of Kittle in my constituency in the wider context of the post office network in rural Wales.
I am a member of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, which over recent years has investigated the impact of post office closures on local communities, and in particular what the Post Office was doing to keep local post offices open, or to find replacements when that was not possible. We were assured that Post Office Ltd. would do all it reasonably could to avoid the closure of post office branches in rural areas. We were also told about the consultation procedure agreed between Post Office Ltd. and the Consumer Council for Postal Services, Postwatch, which gave the strong impression that the Post Office was willing to listen to and respond positively wherever possible to the concerns of local communities. In the case that I am about to describe, I believe that Post Office management at regional level and possibly higher has not done all it reasonably can to avoid a closure, and it has failed to respond positively to the views of its customers in Kittle and the surrounding area.
John Mizen and his wife Lynda took over Kittle post office in February 2000. In doing so, they signed a contract that required them to keep the post office open
between 9 am and 5.30 pm. They do not dispute that. They signed the contract in the expectation and hope that they would be able to manage under such a regime. However, as they set themselves to providing the service to their customers and building a very good reputation for the quality of that service, they found the requirement to keep the post office open without a lunch break burdensome and that it even impacted on their health and well-being.In July last year, the Mizens therefore contacted the local Post Office management to request that their contract be reconsidered. They were informed of the procedure that they should follow. Essentially, it consisted of auditing the customer services that they provided between 1 o'clock and 2 o'clock over a month and consulting their customers about the possibility of the post office being closed at that time. They did that and submitted the results, which showed very low demand, to Post Office Ltd. in Bridgend with a request for a variation of contract hours, as is allowed for in Post Office rules.
The Mizens made that submission last September, with a request that the new hours, with lunchtime closure, should begin in the new year on 3 January 2003. They were confident that they would be granted the variation that they requested. However, even by mid-January, they had heard nothing in response, so they contacted the Post Office management saying that, as they had heard nothing, they presumed that their request had been agreed to and would therefore begin the new hours in the following month, February. They were told that they could not do that and that management would have to conduct its own review. No explanation was given as to why such a review had not been carried out between September, when the submission was made, and January, when the proposed changes would have started. Following the management review, they were told that they could not shut the post office for lunch in any circumstances. No reasons or details of the review findings were provided.
That has been one of the most worrying aspects of this whole sorry episode. Post Office management has failed to engage with Mr. and Mrs. Mizen in any meaningful way. In my view, that is a failure by the management properly to carry out its duty to manage positively. No wonder that Mr. and Mrs. Mizen were now at the end of their tether and deeply frustrated. They decided to close the post office for lunch periods anyway from 3 February. On 14 February, they were warned that, if they continued to close for lunch, they would be in breach of their contract, which could put it at risk. Still no rationale was provided and no offer was made to discuss the situation, let alone negotiate a way forward. The same was true on 11 March, when management was again pressed to reconsider the matter. There was still no real and meaningful communication about the central issue.
On 7 April, Mr. and Mrs. Mizen were given notice because they were not in compliance with their contract. However, Post Office Ltd. has, to date, failed to find anyone else in the village to run the post office. That means that it plans to close the branch that the Mizens run on 7 July without an alternative in the village. It says that the post office will be closed temporarily, while it finds a new sub-postmaster, but the head of the area
community network for the post office appears to have set her mind against allowing Mr. Mizen to be considered for any new contract.The situation in which my constituents in Kittle find themselves is as follows. First, they were asked whether they minded the post office closing for a lunch break and they said "No problem." Notwithstanding that, Post Office management, confident that it knows what is best for them, and after messing the Mizens about for several months, said that the post office must stay open for that lunchtime period. As the Mizens did not go along with that, they were given notice to quit and the post office will close in about three weeks if nothing is done. So, to keep a post office open during the lunch period when its customers do not want to use it, Post Office management is prepared to withdraw all post office services from those customers for an indefinite period. I have to say that the logic defies me.
Having received dozens of letters from people in Kittle and post office customers from neighbouring villages, I have tried to explore management's thinking. I have exchanged letters with the head of the area community network. Her position, as I understand it, is as follows:
- "This is about a serious and wilful breach of contract, the consequences of which were clearly explained to Mr. Mizen on several occasions."
- "It is the responsibility of Post Office Ltd line management to determine the service criteria. This is largely dependent on the amount of work conducted at the office which then reflects the type of contract that is applicable."
I asked regional management how many complaints it had received when Mr. Mizen closed for lunch. The answer was none. Let us contrast that with the hundreds of letters received, and the 700 signatures on a petition calling for Mr. Mizen to be allowed to close for lunch.
I think that a central problem in what is now an open dispute is a practical problem. The head of the post office community network in Wales does not accept Mr. Mizen's claim that he cannot have a lunch break if the post office remains open. She says
- "he has reportedly five members of staff—surely someone could cover for his absence."
Even if a trained post office worker was available, the need to keep two people covering such a quiet period—one dealing with the post office, the other on a shop
till—would not stack up economically, and the business cannot sustain it. In practice, Mr. Mizen loses his lunch break—with health and welfare consequences—if he complies with his contract.I fear that some clues may be provided to the depth of consideration given to the issue by management in a letter that I, along with other interested parties, have been sent by management. The letter, headed "Important Information—Temporary Closure" states
- "Kittle Branch Post Office will close on 9th July 2003."
I am not asking for a new and irreversible precedent to be set. Last year in Gower, in the village of Three Crosses just a few miles from Kittle, the post office was granted exactly the sort of variation of hours that the Mizens seek. I believe that the avenue we are going down will mean everyone losing out—the Mizens, the post office and, most important of all, the people of Kittle and the surrounding area who use the post office. Of course, the main losers will be the least well off, the least mobile and the least independent.
It seems to me that heels have been dug in rather too deeply, and that the position should be reviewed by Post Office management at a higher level than that at which the decisions have been made so far. I am sure that if that happens common sense can prevail, and the Kittle post office can be maintained as the vital resource that it undoubtedly is.
I have written to the chief executive of Post Office Ltd. requesting a meeting to discuss the situation in Kittle, and an opportunity to present the 700-signature petition collected by the Kittle community in support of the Mizens. I shall be asking him to arrange for the decisions made so far to be re-examined, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will tell me that he will try to facilitate such a review.
My confidence that if good sense prevails there can be a satisfactory outcome and a secure future for the current Kittle post office has been bolstered by what the chairman of Royal Mail told the conference of the National Federation of SubPostmasters yesterday. In his speech in Scarborough Mr. Leighton outlined plans for post office branches to sell a comprehensive range of financial services in the future, including unsecured personal loans, a Post Office credit card, saving accounts and motor and life insurance. All that will be welcome, as it will increase post offices' income streams.
Mr. Leighton also described plans to give sub-postmasters a greater say in the running of their branches, to provide better incentives for them to make a profit, and to introduce more flexibility to encourage entrepreneurial flair. That too is excellent news. I agree with Mr. Leighton that while the next two years will be challenging, the post office network has a bright future.
Let me end by quoting a couple of parts of Mr. Leighton's speech, which I think are relevant to the situation in Kittle. He said
- "We are determined to put our Post Office branches on a better financial footing by giving customers the products they want and letting subpostmasters get on with the job of running their branches to suit their customers."
Mr. Leighton then went on to say:
- "Other changes to make Post Office branches more attractive to customers will include extended or more flexible opening hours, with subpostmasters deciding when their branches should be open to attract most customers."
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