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Paddy Tipping: I agree entirely. If there is time, I will develop those points, but the essential argument is that landfill is still cheap here compared with other countries. Until we can find fiscal mechanisms to resolve that, the problem will persist. A lot of local authority time is spent bidding for money—challenge fund and private finance initiative money, for example. I am not convinced that that is the best way, in the long term, to achieve effective solutions.
Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test): On environmental protection and cultural services, I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware that the same budget heading provides local authorities with the ability to pay for landfill and the ability to invest in machinery, plant and activities that divert waste. Therefore, on the face of it, there appears to be a perverse incentive: the more local authorities pay for landfill, the less they have available for waste diversion. Did the Committee consider that point, and what view did it take?
Paddy Tipping: The Committee took the simple view that investment is needed to make better progress and achieve better standards, but it will not come from that block fund, so local authorities are forced to bid for challenge funding and PFI schemes. Until we can give local authorities the tools that they need, problems will continue.
Mr. Sheerman: I know that my hon. Friend sets great store by the knowledge and expertise of the private sector. Did the Committee receive any evidence specifying the amount of investment that the private sector considered necessary for the fulfilling of our obligations? According to the parliamentary sustainable waste group, between £3 billion and £5 billion is needed. That is wildly beyond any amount that the Government have mentioned.
Paddy Tipping: That is true. Companies have told the Committee, "We are prepared to invest, but we want"—as they say nowadays—"a road map for the future. We want to know what game we are playing in. Until there is security, we are not prepared to make long-term investment decisions."
If we are to carry out recycling and composting more effectively, we shall need different collection systems. Local authorities told the Committee that that would cost two or three times more than the black-bag collections that take place now. There is a wider issue here: are we prepared to pay for more effective waste
management and disposal? According to figures from France, the cost there is £105 per person as opposed to £60 in this country.
Mr. Peter Ainsworth: The hon. Gentleman is making some compelling points, but given the huge divergence between the performance of local authorities here—some do relatively well, while some do abysmally—it must not be just a question of resources. It must also be a question of political will.
Paddy Tipping: It is a question of many things, including resources. There is good practice around, and we need to use local authorities to develop it. I see nothing wrong with the notion of setting targets and measuring against them. If we are to make progress, we must combine all those elements. I referred a few moments ago to best practice on the part of some local authorities and very poor practice on the part of others, and it may well be a question of political will in some parts of the country.
I want to talk not just about the infrastructure, but about the policy instruments that the Government are currently using to promote change. It would not be fair to say that they have a one-club approach, but it is not a great deal more than that. We depend heavily on the idea of a landfill tax, and we need to develop other policies such as emissions trading. The landfill tax on its own will not bring about change.
One of the most remarkable examples of consensus at present is the belief that an increase of £3 a year will achieve nothing until the rate reaches about £35 per tonne. I am surprised that the Treasury has not taken more note of that, and I look forward to this year's pre-Budget report.
Mr. Sheerman: Apparently the Treasury is saying that the £3 a year is not really £3 a year—that it is aiming for £35, and can increase the £3 a year. Two things would make a difference: the £35 rate, soon, and a strategic waste authority bringing all the players together and introducing some focus and direction.
Paddy Tipping: As I have said, there is a remarkable degree of consensus.
Mr. Sheerman: Except in the Minister's case!
Paddy Tipping: I suspect that the problem may not lie entirely with the Minister or the Department. The Department has to talk to friends and colleagues in other Departments, particularly the Treasury. If we want better waste management we must pay more for it, though, and by definition that means raising the landfill tax.
We need to go further than that. We need to look at a graduated disposal tax and at taxing the various forms of disposal according to their environmental benefit. Good schemes that are environmentally friendly should be subject to less tax than environmentally bad schemes. Plenty of European examples need to be examined. If we were to take that approach, we would be in a position to tax incineration.
I know that many Labour Members and other hon. Members are interested in incineration. I understand the concerns that exist throughout the country about that.
We need to reflect that that public concern basically springs from public health worries and the scare of cancer.The Government told us in their evidence that they did not believe that there would be a great expansion in incineration. The Select Committee made a simple point: the Government need to set out their position on incineration. Why are they saying that? If one could, for example, develop a locally based, efficient, energy-from-waste scheme, there would be some mileage in looking at that, but we need to be clear why there is opposition to incineration. To take incineration entirely out of the equation would be short-sighted.
Sue Doughty (Guildford): The hon. Gentleman has pointed out that people have concerns about the health aspects of incineration. Those concerns are real, but does he accept that people have other concerns about incineration: while we burn things, we are not using those resources in other ways? There is increasing concern about that, too.
Paddy Tipping: There is concern, but we need to be clear on what grounds we are opposing incineration. There are plenty of grounds to do so, but if the Government are opposing incineration, they need to be clear why. The Select Committee made a simple proposition: the Government should make their position clear on incineration, addressing particularly the health and environmental implications of that type of disposal.
Mr. Adrian Flook (Taunton): Does the hon. Gentleman include incinerating waste in power plants, thereby recycling a lot of fuels?
Paddy Tipping: I thought that I made that point earlier. If I did not, I make it clear now that I believe that the only way forward for incineration is locally based, efficient, energy-from-waste schemes. If a scheme came forward on that basis, rational people would find it hard to oppose it.
I make a point on another policy strand: household charging and the possibility of direct charging, or variable charging. I feel strongly that local authorities should have the opportunity to experiment and to pilot that. Part of the problem at the moment is that people feel that they are getting waste disposal and waste collection for free. They are not. They are getting it through the council tax. If the link were clearer, if there were some direct charging or, more particularly, some experience of direct charging, perhaps we could make progress.
There seems to be a strong case for the Government to conclude their reflection on that. They have not ruled it out. They are looking at the issue but there is a strong case for allowing some local determination and local decision making on that matter.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham): Does my hon. Friend agree that at the heart of the issue is the central concern that the general public see waste as someone else's problem, rather than their own problem, and that the best way of bringing it home to them as their own problem is to grasp the nettle and to look at direct charging?
Paddy Tipping: I agree entirely, although I would offer a slightly different description. I am not advocating
universal direct charging; at this stage, I am advocating what the Select Committee argued for—the opportunity to experiment—because there are pros and cons. However, my hon. Friend makes a very important point about waste disposal being detached from us, and not our concern.These are real concerns in my own county of Nottinghamshire. Local people are vigorously opposing new landfill sites planned at the Bentink void and at Bilsthorpe. But the real way to fight landfill schemes is to recycle more and compost more. In Nottinghamshire, it looks as though we will have real difficulty in achieving the 17 per cent. target next year.
Mr. Sheerman: Perhaps I can help Nottinghamshire. As my hon. Friend knows, I chair Urban Minds, which builds sustainable growth parks. The real answer that Nottinghamshire is looking for is a 38th themed industrial park. Such sites not only create jobs; all the businesses—small, medium and large—on our sites use waste as their raw material. That is the way forward and I recommend it to my hon. Friend.
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