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New Clause 4
Limitations on Application
'(1) In the case of a work published on line which is of a description prescribed under section 1(4), this Act applies only if subsection (2) or (3) applies.
(2) This subsection applies if the work is first published from the United Kingdom by—
(a) a British citizen,
(b) a natural person resident in the United Kingdom, or
(c) a body (including a partnership) using a fixed establishment in the United Kingdom.
(3) The presence and use of the technical means and technologies required to provide the information society service, do not, in themselves, constitute an establishment of the provider.
(4) The Secretary of State may be regulations amend subsection (2) or (3).'.—[Mr. Moss.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
Mr. Moss: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 24, in page 4, line 7, clause 6, at end insert—
'(5) Regulations under this section may not be made so as to apply to works published on line which do not contribute to the national intellectual, cultural or scientific record.'.
No. 9, in page 5, line 3, clause 8, at beginning insert—
'( ) Copyright is not infringed by the copying of a work from the internet by a deposit library or person acting on its behalf if—
(a) the work is of a description prescribed by regulations under section (Exemption from liability: activities in relation to publications)(5) of the 2003 Act,
(b) its publication on the internet, or a person publishing it there, is connected with the United Kingdom in a manner so prescribed, and
(c) the copying is done in accordance with any conditions so prescribed.'.
No. 10, in page 5, line 5, clause 8, leave out from first 'the' to end of line 6 and insert '2003 Act'.
No. 12, in page 5, line 24, clause 8, at end insert—
'( ) "the 2003 Act" means the Legal Deposit Libraries Act 2003;'.
No. 13, in page 5, line 25, clause 8, at beginning insert '"deposit library",'.
No. 14, in page 5, line 32, clause 8, at beginning insert—
'( ) Database right in a database is not infringed by the copying of a work from the internet by a deposit library or person acting on its behalf if—
(a) the work is of a description prescribed by regulations under section (Exemption from liability: activities in relation to publications)(5) of the 2003 Act,
(b) its publication on the internet, or a person publishing it there, is connected with the United Kingdom in a manner so prescribed, and
(c) the copying is done in accordance with any conditions so prescribed.'.
No. 15, in page 5, line 34, clause 8, leave out from 'the' to end of line 35 and insert '2003 Act'.
No. 16, in page 5, line 41, clause 8, leave out ', "relevant material" has' and insert '—
( ) "the 2003 Act" means the Legal Deposit Libraries Act 2003;
( ) "deposit library" and "relevant material" have'.
Mr. Moss: New clause 4 would define more clearly the origin of a specific work or piece of information. I am informed that discussions have taken place among the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and representatives of the publishing industry and that there was a view that agreement had been reached that the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Mole) could draft an amendment to address several of the points raised, especially those expressed by the Digital Content Forum. Unfortunately, that did not happen, and the word from the Department was that there would be long-term flexibility to deal with the issue in response to evolving non-print media.
Of course, the effect of the decision is that the Bill has no territorial certainty. The problem is that inadequate consultation has taken place, and perhaps the Minister and the promoter do not really understand the implications of extending the deposit regime to include online publications, because it will raise many difficult problems. The fact that the Bill does not address and clarify the territorial scope of online services is a fundamental fault, which new clause 4 seeks to rectify. It aims to ensure that publishers know in future exactly where they stand in relation to the concept of territoriality.
Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch): I should like to speak to my amendment No. 24, which deals with online publications and would introduce a restriction on the requirement to submit online publications, which would not apply unless they contributed to the national intellectual, cultural or scientific record.
The Bill is extremely woolly on the subject of online publications—[Interruption.] I did not hear what the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas) said.
Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst): He was being rude.
Mr. Chope: That is a matter for the hon. Member for Ceredigion, who should exercise his judgment. I am surprised that he is not concerned about the problem caused by the proliferation of online material on the internet and the prima facie requirement in the Bill that the contents of every single website should be submitted in electronic form to the national deposit library so that they can become part of the national collection.
Mr. Forth: I hesitate to intervene on my hon. Friend, because he knows that my knowledge of, and interest in, the internet is not merely zero but negative. However, I wish to make a modest contribution if I catch Mr. Deputy Speaker's eye, so I would be grateful if my hon. Friend could provide me with some context. Is a website a territorial thing, and does it have a territorial existence or being? That question is germane to the issues raised by this group of amendments, and an explanation would be of enormous assistance in helping me to formulate my thoughts.
Mr. Chope: Unfortunately, my right hon. Friend has chosen the wrong person to get a good answer to that question. As I understand it, the contents of a website can be accessed on any suitable computer in any global jurisdiction. Indeed, I even believe that people travelling intergalactically can get access to those websites.
Mr. Forth: Does it follow that the material on a website cannot have a meaningful territoriality or territorial existence?
Mr. Chope: I am not sure about that, as I understand that there is a series of offences that can be committed by people who download content from a website. From my superficial knowledge, gleaned from looking at popular newspapers, it seems that people are sometimes deemed to be downloading material from a website even when they are just visiting it, rather as one may visit a library to look at the books rather than withdraw
anything. However, I must admit to my right hon. Friend that my knowledge of the difference between a website that falls within a domestic jurisdiction and one that falls within an international jurisdiction is limited. However, like me, he will be familiar with the fact that some websites have a "co.uk" designation—I do not know whether that means that they are exclusive to the UK. I am also aware that some websites are designated ".eu", and do not know whether we cannot get access to them in this country until we join the single currency. There are also dotcom websites, which I understood to be an international grouping, access to which is probably more expensive than to the co.uk sites. But that takes us a bit further than I had intended with the amendment.In the past, the very process of publishing and its costs were such as to restrict the material that was published. In order for books to be published, they had to be considered by a publishers' scrutiny committee, and we know that many tens of thousands of people have sought in vain to have their work published. Now, as I understand it, everyone whose work is rejected for publication in written form can put it on their personal website. The Bill would require every piece of worthless material on a website—in other words, any book not considered by a publisher to be worth publishing—to be submitted to the national library in duplicate. It has even been suggested that six copies may be required.
We have heard much recently about the proliferation of e-mails and something called spam, although I am not quite sure what that is. But those problems are as nothing compared with the problems that will be created if there is a legal obligation under the Bill for every item that is published on the internet by someone resident in this country—to take the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth)—to be submitted to the national library.
Apart from anything else, that will impose an intolerable burden upon the library in cataloguing, storing and accessing such material. It completely cuts across the idea of having a national library collection, which is a collection of works that have been published because a publisher thought that they were worth publishing. There may in the past have been a few works that were published by rich people at their own expense, but such works have been relatively few in number. Now, anyone can set up their own website. They could put a collection of their primary school essays on the website. Some schools encourage their pupils to put their material on to websites so that it can be accessed by a wider audience. Are we really saying that the equivalent of schoolchildren's exercise books, albeit in online form, should have to be submitted to the national library collection?
My amendment seeks to ensure that in so far as there is such a requirement it does not extend to works that do not enjoy significance and contribute to the national intellectual, cultural or scientific record. That concept is clearly reflected in the regulatory impact assessment, which runs to some 17 pages with an appendix, paragraph 2(1) of which states:
- "the objective of the proposed measure is to extend the provisions of section 15 of the Copyright Act 1911 to cover non-print material to ensure that all publications of significance are
- collected, regardless of the medium in which they are published, and are preserved as part of the national published archive so as to remain available to future generations of users."
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