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Mr. Moss: I take some reassurance from the right hon. Lady's words in answer to the proposal in new clause 4, but does she agree that the problem for those who must deal with all this—in particular, the publishers, not the libraries—is the great uncertainty? They do not know what will evolve from the consultations that the Minister and her predecessor have promised, so they are completely in the dark about what the implications, particularly the economic ones, will be for them in future. I hope that, at some stage, the Minister will confirm her predecessor's commitment to the consultation process and the formation of a panel, but will she now give me and those involved a guarantee that, when the panel meets and discusses the implications of the proposals on origination and territorial limitations, nothing will be agreed that strikes against their economic interests?
Estelle Morris: Further amendments to the Bill state rightly that such economic interests need to be taken into account. That is established in the legislation. To refer back to my opening comments, it is almost our
duty to find a way through this, although I accept how difficult it is. If the hon. Gentleman is asking me to say that in all cases, however great or small the economic cost to the publishers, that consideration would in all circumstances override the decision to deposit these materials, I cannot give such an assurance, and I would not want to do so. Other people's interests are also at stake, and that is the balance that we are striving to keep. I shall take every opportunity that I can to confirm what my predecessor said about setting up the forum and the consultation, not acting without expert knowledge, and doing all that we can to take the industry and publishers with us and to allay their fears—I understand that it is difficult when they do not know what will be the eventual shape of the regulations. I repeat, however, that it is right that we try to find a way through. I can do no more than that.I hope that the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire will withdraw new clause 4 and wait for the proper definition of a UK publication in regulations. I might make the same comments in relation to amendment No. 24 tabled by the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope). Again, it is disappointing news, but his childhood essay may not be deposited in one of the major libraries of this country. It never was a provision of the Bill that everything on a website and on the internet would find its way to be deposited in a library. That was never the intention. What we are left with is the process of selection, which is another difficult area. We are grappling with a legislative process that is dealing with something that was not even dreamt of when that legislative process originated in history. That does not mean that we will not have a damn good try at making the legislation as effective as possible.
Briefly, the reason that I resist this amendment is that we want to consult the experts. I can add no more to the comments made by the hon. Member for Ceredigion, whose predecessor, I remember, used to speak on education Bills, so he and I were well used to the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst. It is proper to take the advice of those who may not be democratically elected but who have the practical and historical knowledge to enable them to decide what it might be appropriate to keep. I ask the hon. Member for Christchurch not to press amendment No. 24, as it will be the subject of further consultation.
If the Bill passes through all its parliamentary stages, we will not immediately begin to collect all the online and offline material that has been published. It will not be a case of everything having to be deposited from day one. The advisory panel, which, I hope, will work with the library and experts, will decide almost on a rolling basis what is collected. It will not therefore impact on all the material at exactly the same time—let us say, six months from now—but will be done in a carefully managed way. In response to both hon. Gentlemen who expressed such concern, it is absolutely right that the way that we determine what will be collected, and when and how it will be collected, will be subject to further consultation with those who have the relevant experience.
Mr. Forth: Given that the Minister has only recently picked up this responsibility, she is doing a wonderful job in the House today. If only all Ministers were as
confident and competent as she has proved to be. She has earned fully the prize that she received the other night.The Minister has made several references to future consultation. Does she not concede, given that she has only recently arrived in her post, that the Bill would have benefited from much more previous consultation and, who knows, from pre-legislative scrutiny, which is very trendy under her Government at the moment? Perhaps if the Bill had been a Government Bill, scrutinised pre-legislatively—
Mr. Forth: Certainly not. Fifty per cent. of the population are still not online, and we do not want to disfranchise them. I thought that we were all-inclusive these days. Does not the Minister concede that in offering future consultation she highlights the fact that the Bill has suffered greatly from not having enough previous consultation?
Estelle Morris: That very thought crossed my mind earlier this week.
Mr. Chope: The Minister said that she saw some sense in my amendment No. 24 but did not like its precise wording and wanted to consult about it. The wording in that amendment is the same as in the regulatory impact assessment produced by Baroness Blackstone on 11 March. Paragraph (iv) on page 3 refers to non-print publications and says that
- "there is a considerable risk that important material contributing to the national intellectual, cultural and scientific record will not be secured and preserved".
Estelle Morris: The problem arises in defining that. I have every confidence in my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, but I do not think that I would be taking too much of a risk if I were to say that she might not wish to take to herself decisions about defining what fulfils the criteria.
Regulatory impact assessments will be published in respect of any regulations made, so clarifications that have been sought today and not received might get another bite of the cherry later. The hon. Gentleman will have another chance to put forward his definition of what should be collected when the consultation takes place.
Estelle Morris: I will not give way, as I have concluded my remarks.
Mr. Moss: I am not surprised that the Minister sat down when she was ahead. However, will she respond to one more question before I decide what to do with new clause 4? She said that a consultation panel would work with the industry to consider carefully the implications
of the definition of "territoriality". Is she saying that she believes that it is vital to define a UK publication and that she will seek to do that with the panel?
Estelle Morris: We have to find a way through that. If the hon. Gentleman is asking whether something I say will define the outcome of the consultation, the answer is no. If he is saying that it is an important issue that must be resolved to the understanding—if not the agreement—of all concerned, the answer is yes.
Mr. Moss: The Minister again chose her words extremely carefully, referring to "understanding" and not to "agreement". This is an important issue that must be addressed. I hope that the Minister will concentrate on it perhaps before the Bill goes to the other place. The Bill may fall on this issue if "understanding", not "agreement" is the key ingredient in the consultation.
With those prescribed assurances on the record, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr. Mole: I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 4, line 3, leave out subsections (3) and (4).
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will convenient to take the following amendments: No. 25, in page 4, line 5, leave out subsection (4).
- that Clause 9 be divided into three Clauses, the first consisting of subsections (1), (7) to (7C) and (9) (Regulations: general), the second of subsections (2) to (6) (Regulations: Scotland and Wales) and the third of subsections (8) and (10) (Regulations: Trinity College, Dublin).
'(7A) Regulations under section 1(4) or 6 may not be made so as to apply to works published before the regulations are made.
(7B) Regulations under section 1(4) or 6 may not be made unless the Secretary of State considers that the costs likely to be incurred as a result of the regulations by persons who publish works to which the regulations relate are not disproportionate to the benefit to the public arising from the delivery of copies of such works.
(7C) Regulations under section 1(4), 6, 7 or (Exemption from liability: activities in relation to publications)(5) may not be made unless the Secretary of State considers that the regulations do not unreasonably prejudice the interests of persons who publish works to which the regulations relate.'.
Government amendment (a) thereto, in line 3, after '1(4)', insert '2'.
Government amendment (b) thereto, in line 8, after '1(4)', insert '2'.
No. 22, in page 6, line 38, at end insert—
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