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Mr. Chope: I think that the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Mole) has misinterpreted my amendment No. 25 because it would remove the requirement that
- "Regulations . . . may not be made so as to apply to works published before the regulations are made."
Having heard the Minister's helpful comments in response to the previous group of amendments, it seems that the matter will be so complicated, particularly with online publications, that it may be many years before we have any regulations. In the meantime, there will be no requirement that important online publications should be deposited with the library. I hope that the hon. Gentleman can address my concern that there may be a lacuna in the Bill if subsection (4) remains.
Estelle Morris: I particularly wish to speak to Government amendments (a) and (b) to amendment No. 17, which I think has been welcomed. The amendments seek to offer extra protection to the publishers, because, as I think has already been said, one of the characteristics of online publishing is that work can be republished and republished and changed every day, so a decision has to be made as to whether a publication is new or substantially the same. The same could be true of printed books as well.
Amendment No. 17 and amendment (a) merely give the reassurance that when consideration is given to whether a publication is substantially the same, the cost to the publishers will be taken into account. I hope that will be welcomed by the publishers as some protection.
I am glad that the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) acknowledged my previous comment that RIAs will be published in respect of the regulations, and that they will be introduced in the right and proper way, giving yet another opportunity to discuss the consequences of any subsequent regulations. I hope that he will understand if I resist trying to invent an example of a case of the interests of the publisher outstripping the interests of the public; otherwise we would be here all weekend, let alone all afternoon.
Mr. Moss: I wish to speak to amendments Nos. 21 and 22. I mentioned amendment No. 21 in my opening remarks on new clause 3, to which I said it was related. We had a fairly good debate on that and I do not wish to continue that discussion any further at this juncture, save to say that it is an important point that I believe will be revisited in the other place.
The hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Mole), in discussions with the Department, has gone quite a long way to meeting some of the reasons for tabling
amendment No. 22, except that it referred to regulations under the Bill whereas amendment No. 17 restricts the regulations to clauses 1(4) or 6. Clause 1(4) states:
- "In the case of a work published in a medium other than print, this Act applies to a work of a prescribed description."
My amendment has not made the grade, so to speak, but I sought to broaden the debate from non-print to print, because there are still some concerns relating to the print medium, which I am sure is an issue to which we will return in the other place. Unfortunately, as the Committee stage was rather rushed, although there has been some consultation, the time scale has been limited and many of us received the amendments only a day or so ago and the selection of amendments only last evening. I am informed by the publishing community that it was told of amendments, or received amendments, only after the deadline for tabling them at 7 o'clock the other day. It is not pleased about that. It meant that it was unable to adjust some of its ideas and proposals accordingly. There are outstanding issues, especially with regard to print, that will be revisited. I am putting that down for the Minister and the proposer to take on board, because these matters will need to be addressed fairly rapidly in the short time that is available before the House rises.
1.30 pm
As drafted, the structure of the Bill will continue without any change to the current system of deposit of print publications to the British Library, and on request to the other legal deposit libraries. There is, however, a failure to recognise the economic impact of the current system on a significant number of print publishers of high-value business, particularly management and scientific reports, directories and printed databases. These publishers may well sell fewer than 10 copies of any given title. The costs to them are, first, the marginal cost of supply and, secondly, the loss of sales resulting from access to deposited materials by users, or by the deposit libraries not purchasing those materials.
The deposit libraries have recognised that and have accepted that publishers can embargo access to their materials and deposit to on-deposit libraries only. However, there was no consultation on the current system of print deposit. The Kenny committee was set up by the Government to consider these matters, and especially non-print publishers. It focused only on non-print publishers, and the libraries acknowledged the difficulties under the current system for certain publishers. Those difficulties are not acknowledged in the Bill. I attempted through amendment No. 21 to bring them within the ambit of the Bill. I recognise that I failed to do so, but I am sure that the issue will be revisited, as I have said, in the other place.
It seems fair and reasonable that protections should equally apply to all publications, whether they are format print or non-print. In amendment No. 17, the proposer has gone quite a long way to accepting the principles of disproportionate burden, but only as they apply to non-print publications. An imbalance is left for some publications, particularly of the high-value, low-volume producers. That being so, I shall not press my
amendments. As I have said, I can assure the Government and the proposer that these issues will be revisited.
Mr. Mole: I welcome the contribution of all hon. Members. I shall respond to the challenge to identify an example of the balance of decision between the publisher interest outweighing the requirement to deposit. The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) has touched on the concept of high-value, short-life publications in the print world as much as in the non-print world. In the non-print world, it is particularly critical for a number of publishers that there should be some decisions about at least making a delay in the availability of deposited material so as not to interfere with their ability to extract commercial benefit from their short-run publications.
The other circumstance would be one where sales are less than a certain number. It would be appropriate for the Secretary of State to make regulations requiring that deposits not be made.
The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire commented on the difficulties from which we have all suffered as a result of the time that it has taken to nail down some of the detail in the Bill. The issue of variants to the print regulations has been raised at the 11th hour. I thought it was clear since Second Reading and through Committee that there was no intention to change the 1911 framework with regard to print.
I respect the concern of the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) about the gap that may exist until regulations are made. He should accept an honest commitment made by the Minister to make progress where progress can be made, and as quickly as possible.
Mr. Mole: I beg to move amendment No. 2, in page 4, line 9, leave out 'use' and insert
'do any of the activities listed in subsection (1A) in relation to'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: Nos. 23 and 3.
No. 4, in page 1, line 11, clause 2, after 'of', insert 'significant'.
No. 5, in page 2, line 2, after 'of', insert 'significant'.
No. 7, in page 2, line 10, leave out from 'of' to 'thing' in line 11 and insert
'any vessel or part of any vessel.'.
No. 8, in page 2, line 12, leave out 'trace or'.
Mr. Mole: I encourage the House to support amendments Nos. 2 to 8 and 11, and to resist amendment No. 23. Amendments Nos. 2 to 8 address libraries' use of deposited material or clarify what libraries can do with the material that is deposited. They provide that neither libraries nor readers can perform any of the activities listed in subsection (1A) unless regulations are made under subsection (2) allowing them to do so. Amendment No. 3 details the range of activities allowed, subject to regulations, in respect of legally deposited material. The amendment provides that activities that can be authorised are authorised. Those activities include using the material, copying it, adapting an accompanying computer programme and, lending, transferring and disposing of material. Amendments Nos. 2, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 are all consequential upon it.
Amendment No. 7 relates to web harvesting. It provides that material that has been web harvested is covered by the restrictions on use in clause 7, as is any copy that is made of the work originally deposited.
The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas) tabled an amendment that would allow relevant persons to copy material without exception. I understand his concern that the work of librarians and archivists must not be seen to suffer or be hindered by cumbersome legal requirements. That is not the point of the Bill. Although I appreciate the sentiment behind his argument, I conclude that at this stage it is rather premature. What a library can do with the material once it is deposited will be considered prior to regulations being made. It seems pointless now to make exceptions to the activities detailed in amendment No. 3 when the matter will be considered and consulted on in due course.
Amendment No. 11 relates to copyright and makes clear the effect of regulations made under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 to exclude the application of provisions of the Copyright Act. It rewrites subsection (3), clarifying the scope of prescribed activities for which regulations under clause 8(2) can be made. It may be necessary to turn off some or all of the copyright exceptions as they apply to non-print legal deposit material, to ensure that deposited material cannot be used without infringing copyright in circumstances where that would not be possible with the same material in other libraries that have had to purchase it.
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