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Mr. Wayne David (Caerphilly): My right hon. Friend has placed a great deal of emphasis on the veto, but he must recognise that a veto for one country is a veto for all countries. Does he accept that it will make it extremely difficult, in an association of 25 member states, to get agreement on many policies?
Denzil Davies: It might be more difficult to get agreement on some policies, but there is a fundamental proposition that we should operate on the basis of the best possible democracy. The veto exists to protect
Poland and other countries—to protect France, which wants to safeguard its cultural interests—and to protect the democracy of the individual state. If we are concerned about democracy, it is a better way to proceed.Under the treaty of Nice, 30 or so vetoes went. The Foreign Secretary said that they were trivial. Perhaps some of them were, but some were not. I have tried to count the number of vetoes that will go under the new constitution. I have counted 40—some people have counted up to 80, but I shall stay at 40. Will we be told that they are trivial, too, and that they can be done away with? Alternatively, are some trivial, and some not?
Mr. Straw: I do not believe that I have used the word "trivial" in any of these debates.
Denzil Davies: Perhaps my right hon. Friend did not use the word "trivial", but he made it clear that many, if not all, of the 30 or so vetoes under the treaty of Nice were really not important at all, and could be cast aside. If he wants to look at the record, we will do that. Is he now saying that the 40 or however many vetoes that are to be abolished are of no consequence? Alternatively, is there some other reason why they can be done away with?
Even if this draft constitution is ratified, I do not believe that it will be the treaty to end all treaties—there will be one, two or three more treaties before the process is completed. The Convention on the constitution provides a foundation for a centralised criminal justice system. Another treaty will probably be needed to complete that task. It establishes the basis of a common foreign and defence policy, and another treaty will be needed to finish that task.
As far as the vetoes are concerned, the veto on taxation will have to go. With the growth and stability pact in tatters, there will be economic pressure, and calls will be made for fiscal policy to be controlled from the centre, just as monetary policy is controlled now.
Once that process is complete, and there is a unified criminal justice system, a common foreign and defence policy, a single currency and fiscal policy controlled from the centre, we are pretty far down the road of becoming a province, not a country.
Finally, I have one request to make of my right hon. Friend. As we embark on these debates, could he do his best to remove Thucydides' name from the cover of the document, as he does not really deserve it?
3.49 pm
Mr. Menzies Campbell (North-East Fife): Like others, I was much intrigued by the demonstration of classical scholarship that we have just heard from the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Denzil Davies). I do not intend to follow him all the way down that road, but let me remind him that the Athenian democracy was based on slavery. Those who had the right to throw the pebble to demonstrate their democratic rights were a very small proportion of the population of Athens and Greece.
The right hon. Gentleman suggested that the veto is an illustration of democracy, but I rather believe that much more often it is an illustration of the self-interest
of a particular country that is determined not to allow itself to be prejudiced in certain matters that it regards as important.
Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich): Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Mr. Campbell: Not for the moment.
On the question of whether a country ceases to be a country, Scotland entered into a Union of the Crowns and then a Union of the Parliaments, and I do not think that anyone could argue that, in spite of being in a currency union for all those years, Scotland ever ceased to be a country. Indeed, the fact that it never ceased to be a country is reflected in the new constitutional settlement that has had to be agreed for Scotland and Wales.
Sir Patrick Cormack: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman not acknowledge that self-interest is a defining characteristic of national independence?
Mr. Campbell: That may well be so, but I am not sure that it is necessarily an illustration of the application of the democratic principle.
Others have rightly paid tribute to the European Scrutiny Committee and to the United Kingdom members of the Convention. Although I do not always agree with what the right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) writes or says, it would only be right and proper to say that he has displayed a very remarkable degree of independence and, some might say—I certainly would—original thought about these matters. He certainly deserves to be recognised.
There is a recurring joke in the circles of the Democratic party in the United States. It asks, "Why is it that the convention of the Democratic party to pick a presidential candidate should last for four days when only two days would be sufficient?" To which the answer is, "Well, after two days everything has been said, but not everyone has said it." As we go over the same ground time after time on this issue, there is a sense that everything has been said but not everyone has said it. That is why I welcome, in particular, the announcement made on Monday in the other place, and confirmed today by the Foreign Secretary, that a White Paper will set out the Government's objectives for the intergovernmental conference.
With all due respect to the Foreign Secretary, today's debate is taking place in a vacuum, without a clear indication of what the Government's objectives are likely to be. That also points to the fact that, if a White Paper is to be published in advance of the IGC, which is scheduled to start in October, space must inevitably be made in the parliamentary timetable when we come back in September for consideration of that White Paper. It would be unfortunate were the IGC to commence and were discussion in the House of the White Paper to begin after the commencement of the IGC.
Mr. Allen: The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that he wanted to allow time for everyone to say what
has already been said, but surely a debate on the Floor of the House at that time would be less useful than a debate in, let us say, the European Scrutiny Committee or another body established to examine the issue in more detail. Hearing the same speeches from—with great respect to him and those who have already spoken—the same people will not progress the matter much further and will not allow people outside the House to participate.
Mr. Campbell: I have great deal of sympathy for the motion that the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) have tabled, and I shall say a little more about it shortly. It is supported by Members of all parties. However, we should surely debate White Papers on the Floor of the House of Commons, because it is here that we are able to hold the Government to account for their policy rather than perhaps for the detail. That is why I very much hope that, when we return in September, we will have the opportunity to debate a White Paper that sets out clearly the Government's objectives in relation to the IGC. That will allow the House the opportunity to pass judgment on those objectives.
Mr. Cash: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Mr. Campbell: I am sorry but I must make progress. I might give way later.
To some extent, the vacuum in which we are conducting this debate is illustrated by the Government motion. When one examines it carefully, one realises that it is offensive only to the most Eurosceptic. It sets out a series of propositions that I, at least, regard as largely unexceptionable. Unfortunately, as was reflected again in the Foreign Secretary's speech, there is as yet no recognition of the need for a referendum of the British people if what is proposed at the end of the process on which we are about to embark constitutes significant constitutional change. Three amendments to the Government's motion—two stand in the name of the leaders of specific political parties and the other was tabled by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead—call for a referendum and are supported by hon. Members of all parties in the House. Only the Government have set themselves against a referendum.
Let me repeat a test that I have set out previously. If the provisions that the Government eventually bring before the House propose any major shift of control, any transfer of significant powers from member states to European institutions, or any alteration to the existing balance between member states and those institutions, a referendum would be necessary. I do not understand how the current contents of the Convention document can be described as "tidying up".
Mr. Cash: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Mr. Campbell: This is an especially important part of what I want to say. I would like to finish it and then I shall give way.
A referendum should be inevitable if the final proposals that the Government bring to the House
resemble the Convention draft that we are considering today. I find it difficult to conceive of circumstances in which a referendum would not be necessary if the final proposals indeed resemble that draft.
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