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4.10 pm
Mr. Jimmy Hood (Clydesdale): First, may I add my congratulations to those already given to the right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) and my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) on their outstanding work in the past year or so on the Convention? I am sure that they thought that it was a good idea when they put themselves forward for the job, but they must have felt differently many times when travelling backwards and forwards to Brussels. The House should nevertheless record its appreciation of the work that they have both done, along with that of their two substitutes in the other place.
I thank the Foreign Secretary for his kind remarks about the reports produced by the European Scrutiny Committee and for his letter offering to discuss how the
Committee can get involved in the work of the intergovernmental conference. I am sure that the Committee will respond to the letter very soon, but may I extend an informal invitation to him? As we have said before, we would be delighted if he gave evidence to the Committee, as that would be a good start to the process.I enjoyed the Foreign Secretary's contribution to our debate, and did not agree with the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), who described it as a rant. In fairness, it was an enjoyable, informative and—dare I say?—flamboyant contribution. If we can have the debates on Europe that he recommended, perhaps we will get greater participation on European issues in the House. When listening to Members on both sides of the House putting both sides of the argument, I realised how much I should appreciate being Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee. I enjoy quasi-independence because I can criticise both sides without being thought offensive, and have managed to do so for the 11 years since I first became Chairman. I enjoy my role, and I appreciate it all the more when it allows me to participate in events such as tonight's debate.
The European Scrutiny Committee has taken a close interest in the Convention. We held an inquiry and published a major report last year on democracy and accountability in the EU and the role of national Parliaments. We have recently published two reports—on proposals for national Parliaments, and on criminal justice—and they are cited as relevant documents on the Order Paper. We have also participated fully in the Standing Committee on the Convention. That Committee was an excellent innovation, but it would have been better if more Members had participated. It was attended by members of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and the European Scrutiny Committee, as well as by Members of the House of Lords. None the less, I would welcome the sort of interest that is displayed on the Floor of the House. When I see a lot of names attached to amendments, I think that it would be good if those hon. Members came to Standing Committees dealing with the same subjects. That is a plug for European Standing Committees A, B and C which do outstanding work in this place, but which very few hon. Members attend. More should involve themselves in that way.
The role of national Parliaments is at the heart of everything that the European Scrutiny Committee does. That theme was found in the Laeken declaration, which deals with better democratic scrutiny and transparency. I welcome the role in subsidiarity of the proposed early warning system, which is of symbolic importance, as for the first time national Parliaments will be fully involved in the European Union's legislative process. However, I need to put a marker down: I am not convinced that the good intention will work in practice. I welcomed the observations that the Prime Minister made in the Liaison Committee this week when I asked him about the issue. I also applaud the proposal made by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston, who suggested a red-card mechanism and an extension to cover the principle of proportionality.
Angus Robertson: I intervene on my Committee Chairman with some trepidation. He mentioned the early warning system, which I agree is very important. Is he not slightly concerned that the Government have not
confirmed how they envisage the devolved Administrations and Parliaments being involved in that process? After all, most of the sovereignty that we share with the European Union, for example, is devolved within the UK and is not a matter for this place to decide.
Mr. Hood: I understand the hon. Gentleman's point of view, which I have discussed on a number of occasions. Indeed, I raised it with the Prime Minister this week in the Liaison Committee.
At long last, we have in the draft treaty an important provision ensuring that the Council will meet in public when it is legislating. We have argued for years for such an arrangement. I understand that the European Union is one of only two legislators that meet and legislate in private. The other is North Korea, so I welcome that provision.
Mr. Robert Walter (North Dorset): I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman is congratulating the Convention on the fact that the Council will meet in public. Would he also be in favour of his Committee sitting in public?
Mr. Hood: I remember that the hon. Gentleman was a member of the Committee for a few weeks. Last year, we published a report in which we accepted the need to be more open and transparent. We are committed to considering that issue and keen to conduct more of our business in public. The matter is being looked at as we speak.
The single change to which I am referring will make it easier for national Parliaments to hold Ministers to account, although the detail will have to be watched very carefully. I have been a member of the European Scrutiny Committee for, I think, 16 years. During that time, Ministers from Governments of both persuasions have told us that they think that something will happen in the Council, but the result has not necessarily followed. We found out that we did not have any way of checking how the Minister was voting. I am sure that a proper procedure was being followed in respect of this House, as there will always be hon. Members who represent us in Europe. However, I do not know whether that was the case for everyone involved, as the votes were made in secret. The proposal could be improved by the inclusion of some form of written record of what is done. We would welcome the establishment of a European Union Hansard record of the Council meetings.
We also need to ensure that the Council takes national Parliaments' scrutiny reserves seriously—for example, by requiring Councils to give reasons for overriding them. A more orderly legislative process with less last-minute drafting would help, including proper intervals between stages—for example, a minimum of 10 days between COREPER meetings and Council. More co-operation between subject and departmental committees would be worthwhile, including on matters such as defence. Some Convention proposals, however, could cause problems for national Parliaments, especially the extension of qualified majority voting and co-decision. The latter, especially at its conciliation stage, needs to be much more transparent. I fear that that proposal has not been thought through; the Convention should have discussed it further before suggesting the extension of such an opaque system.
On institutional reform, the Convention seems to have been more interested in bargaining between institutions than in seeking to improve European Union democracy and accountability, but some important changes have been made. I welcome the end of the rotating presidency and the creation of a longer-term President of the Council.
Changes to the Commission deserve more attention than they have received. The intention to reduce the number of Commissioners to 15, with equal rotation, would mean that the UK would not always have a Commissioner. It is also proposed that the Commission President would choose each country's Commissioner from a shortlist of three. The IGC will want to consider that.
Mr. Cash: In relation to the recent report of the European Scrutiny Committee, on which we both serve, does the hon. Gentleman agree, given that we concluded that the harmonisation of criminal law should be rejected, that if it were not rejected we would have to veto the treaty?
Mr. Hood: I do not want to pre-empt anything that goes off in the IGC. Given the Prime Minister's answers when we questioned him on those matters in the Liaison Committee, I am sure that the Government intend to use their veto to ensure that that does not happen.
Further consideration should be given to the significant reduction in the threshold for qualified majority voting by removing one of the three elements agreed in Nice—weighted votes. QMV will need to be defended in some areas—for example, criminal justice, taxation and the common foreign security policy.
I must flag up my deep concern at the suggestions that there could be simpler ways of amending the treaties, or parts of them, without needing ratification in each country; that the new treaty could come into force when, say, 80 per cent. of countries have ratified; or that countries that do not ratify the new treaty will be regarded as having left the European Union. That is the route to the federal superstate of which many people are frightened, and which most of us do not believe could happen. It must be kicked into touch when the IGC meets.
I want to say a few words about criminal justice. The European Scrutiny Committee was particularly worried by the radical proposals agreed by the Convention working group on the basis of a very narrow range of evidence. On criminal procedures, the aim should be to limit harmonisation to matters that facilitate recognition of foreign judgments, rather than to give the European Union free rein over the whole of criminal procedure. Harmonisation would be limited to matters such as admissibility of evidence and the rights of individuals and victims, as in article III-166(2). Those categories are very broad, since virtually anything may concern the rights of individuals. Unanimity is therefore important: otherwise, we will not know where this is leading and minorities could be overridden.
It is especially unnecessary for the rules of evidence to be the same in all member states. Some do not have jury trial and others have different forms of it. It may not be
fair to put before a jury what is fair to put before a judge. For example, if a trial is fair in country A, the judgment can be recognised and enforced in country B, even though the rules in the latter might be different. That should be examined.
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