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Mr. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North): Does the right hon. Gentleman concede that it might have been a good idea to hold a referendum on the Single European Act as that was a principle change, too?
Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: It was by no means as radical as the constitution that we are considering, as I think that the hon. Gentleman would concede. That treaty amendment was indeed far reaching, but it was focused on the single market, to which there was general assent. It was a liberating measure. What we are doing now is abolishing or repealing all the existing treaties and
funnelling them into a constitution. That produces a new status and is a clean break with the situation that prevailed in the past.That is shown by the extremely late proposal for the so-called passerelle clause, whereby the European Council will, within itself, be able to agree to abolish all that remains subject to the national veto, putting the whole lot into QMV, with no recourse to the House or to the people. I agree with the hon. Member for Hornchurch (John Cryer), who called in question the working methods of the Convention, whereby, at a very late stage, this far-reaching proposal can be got in.
Meanwhile, power is being centralised in the Union in some of the least efficient and most corrupt institutions in modern politics. Today, we heard the news that Eurostat has finally been raided. The scandal about the money expended by that EU agency has been rumbling on since 1999. We have heard the familiar denials and there has been the familiar suppression of evidence, but it is now conceded by the Commission that, to quote its press release,
- "serious wrong-doing on a much more widespread scale than previously thought may have taken place".
The big losers are, of course, national Parliaments, contrary to the Laeken declaration, which recognised that, if the EU is to be brought closer to its citizens and made more democratic, national Parliaments had an inescapable extra role to fulfil. Instead of that, we have been fobbed off with a subsidiarity check that is no more than a request.
I strongly agree with the points made by the distinguished Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee, the hon. Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood), about criminal law and procedures. They are to be subject to qualified majority voting and as the report notes, that is hardly an appropriate way for an enlarged European Union to increase its democratic legitimacy. The gap between people and rulers will widen, especially given the fact that we are considering the power to punish and imprison our constituents. We are going to the core of what a nation state is about and we are handing over those powers to a more remote institution—the European Union.
I noticed that the Foreign Secretary objected only to criminal procedures being changed or amended by QMV. What about the actual laws? Is that not a red line issue, too?
I want to raise a more fundamental issue: the very status of the constitution. Article I-10 states that Union law
- "shall have primacy over the law of the Member States".
- "shall actively and unreservedly support the Union's common foreign and security policy in a spirit of loyalty and mutual solidarity".
In other words, will our traditional parliamentary sovereignty and our certainty, until now, that we cannot be bound by previous Parliaments survive a constitution that takes unto itself the statement and assertion that it is superior to any law, passed by any member state? That is not simply a hypothetical question; it is based on a reading of the text, giving normal meaning to the actual words. I therefore hope—indeed, I require—the Government to address those legal points in the White Paper that they have promised.
It is clear to me that we are signing up to an entirely new constitutional order, subject to a supreme court, which reduces member states and their laws to a position of permanent inferiority. Whether that is good or whether it is bad, it is certainly very important. It is certainly not a tidying-up exercise. That brings me to the same conclusion that many other hon. Members have expressed today: this must be decided, by the people, in a referendum.
It amazes me that people on the radical wing of British politics do not understand that Governments must never define their own powers. That idea goes right back to Tom Paine and "The Rights of Man". He understood that only the people could agree on a constitution; it is not an act of government. We must found this on the consent of the people. In purely tactical terms, if the Government were to decide to hold a referendum on the outcome, as most other member states will do, they would enormously increase their own bargaining position and their negotiating strength.
When the Irish Government now say that they want something changed in the draft constitution, they can get their way because they have to sell their policy to the entire Irish electorate, but when the British Government ask for something, I am sure that they are told, "Well, you've got a majority of 160-odd, what are you worried about?" I conclude that, on constitutional grounds, on tactical grounds and on democratic grounds, the case for a national referendum is inescapable, and I will support the amendment to that effect.
5.2 pm
Mr. Bill Tynan (Hamilton, South): I was a bit concerned that I would follow the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague), whose oration in the Chamber this afternoon was superb. The gift of an orator of that calibre is that he can often convince his audience that the case that he is making is right, and I am not convinced by the case that he made this afternoon. I mean no disrespect to the right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory). I applaud his oration today—it was excellent—but I still reserve the right to disagree.
Over the past few months, there has been considerable discussion about the European Convention, and we should not miss the opportunity that it presents. The
intention was to bring European government and institutions closer to the people of this country. It is important to recognise that that was one of the key facets of the Convention. As a member of the European Scrutiny Committee and the Joint Standing Committee on the Convention, I have at times been disappointed that we did not have a quorum to listen to the contributions from hon. Members and those in the other place. Those Committees have worked diligently to report to both Houses, but it is important to recognise that we have not taken the opportunity to the full extent that we should have done. The media in general have ignored the Convention. They have ignored the fact that we are seriously debating the future of Europe and where we should go.Enlargement is one of the important issues that we have to consider. The fact that we have a new constitutional treaty is inextricably linked to the enlargement process. Ten new countries coming in—an increase from 15 member states to 25—creates a need for a change as well as an opportunity within the European Union.
In relation to the original treaties, people do not understand references to first pillar, second pillar or third pillar. They will recognise, however, that we are attempting to bring the Union closer to the people, to change the structure of Europe and to make sure that we speak in a language that they can understand.
Some hon. Members today have dealt with the issue of a referendum. I am not sure that we should go down that line. At the last European elections, there was an average 29 per cent. turnout. The media largely ignore Europe unless they want to promote or make a joke about something silly. I do not think that they have taken Europe seriously enough.
Mr. Walter: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for referring to the turnout at various electoral contests. Does he acknowledge that the last time that we had a referendum on the European Union, the turnout was well over 70 per cent., and in some areas of the country it is was over 80 per cent?
Mr. Tynan: I accept the hon. Gentleman's point, but I am dealing with current position. No one can deny that people are disconnected from the European parliamentary process, which is what I see constantly.
The Union must be able to function when the number of states rises from 15 to 25. The gains that will result from welcoming so many states into the European Union should not be put at risk by allowing the structures and the working of the EU to grind to a glorious halt. The benefits of enlargement are clear. The accession states will bring in—or bring home—100 million more people, and the EU will become the largest international single market. Even the least optimistic models show a gain for current member states of Euro10 billion and a boost of nearly 1 per cent. of gross domestic product from enlargement.
As a member of the European Scrutiny Committee, I have been privileged to visit accession countries. The sense of excitement within their boundaries is easily recognisable. Some Opposition Members may find that
hard to believe, but they look forward to being part of a united Europe—a Europe of 25 countries working in tandem and delivering for the people of those countries. For many states, it marks the conclusion of a long journey back to the European mainstream, while for others, such as Cyprus and Malta, it reflects a continuity of historical close links and relationships. The results of the referendums on accession have demonstrated the strength of feeling and the benefits that these countries believe they can achieve by becoming EU members. We should salute those decisions and recognise and welcome the expansion of the EU. It is a real opportunity not only for the accession countries but for the EU as a whole.On the fears about what the Convention means for our constitution and sovereignty, I recognise that some individuals may feel threatened by proposals currently being put forward. Although most constituents in the UK are happy with the European Union and comfortable with the benefits that they have received from it, they rightly fear that federal and integrationist tendencies might work against their best interests. What I find completely distasteful, however, is that legitimate fears are being stirred up and hijacked for political gain, against the national interest, by those who are anti-European. I will concede that to be against the idea of a constitutional treaty is not to be in favour of leaving the EU, but I suspect that many of those who shout loudest at present would not be unhappy at the prospect of withdrawal.
I want to touch on three areas about which there is undue alarm. First, there is the relationship between decisions made at European level and legislation passed by Parliament, often described as the primacy of EU law.
In overturning the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act 1988, the Factortame case in 1990 set the principle that, where the United Kingdom had agreed to act through the creation of European laws, the UK cannot then make national laws that contradict what has already been agreed. That was decided in 1990, and this Parliament retains its authority and can, as many Conservatives Members would wish to do, repudiate the original treaty commitments. The proposed constitutional treaty merely makes this existing situation—one that the Conservative Government in 1990 did nothing to reverse—explicit and clear.
The UK is party to many other international treaties that, on occasion, have primacy over our wider law. I would be surprised and concerned if those who loudly condemn the situation with regard to Europe took their position to its full logical extent and sought to change, for example, our membership of the United Nations, the Ottawa convention and even the Geneva convention so that we were no longer legally bound by the commitments that come from those arrangements. An agreed framework for the EU ensuring that no country avoids its commitments should be something that we all welcome.
It was that legal basis rather than the Major Government's pointless posturing that led to the EU's legal action against France, which contributed to the lifting of the ban on British beef. Without that legal basis, France would have been within its rights to ban our beef despite its commitment as a fellow EU member.
It would be a strange club that sought to negotiate a common agreed policy and then gave its members complete licence to do whatever they saw fit.I turn to qualified majority voting. I admit that, for a Union of 25 to function properly, it is necessary to modernise policy making by extending QMV to some additional areas. I am, however, more than happy to see the strength of the Government's commitment to retaining unanimity in key areas such as foreign policy, defence and taxation.
We all understand that the need to retain unanimity over QMV is an important defence of our sovereignty and national interests. What concerns me is that QMV is often portrayed as little more than a sinister plot to force through decisions that the UK would always disagree with. That is surely based on a profoundly pessimistic and outdated vision of the UK, alone on the fringes of Europe standing against foreign hordes. I believe that we have many friends in Europe who, when they cast their votes on a decision, will cast them alongside us.
Finally, on the shape of the EU, the European Scrutiny Committee looked at the proposals for an elected president. We have heard about the six-monthly rotating presidency, and we could not continue with such an anomaly with 25 member states. That is why we need an elected president in Europe. We should not argue against that.
The Council of Ministers is by far the most important lawmaker, and it has been so for many years. However, it meets and takes decisions in secret, and I welcome the fact that its decisions will be open to the public and open to scrutiny. It is important that we are able to connect with the people of this country, and we can do that by having a sensible and open debate on the issues that concern them. I hope that the House will support the motion.
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