| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
5.13 pm
Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann): I must confess that I rise to speak on this subject with a certain amount of trepidation. As with most EU matters, those Members who are in a certain magic circle are well informed about what is happening, but the picture becomes clear to the rest of us only at the last minute and there is a flood of documentation that we endeavour to master. Over the past few weeks, I have been rather preoccupied with other matters and it has only been in the last day or two that I have had the chance to start to catch up with the new constitution. I have been reading the reader-friendly version by Jens-Peter Bonde, and I recommend it to other Members. He is a distinguished Danish Member of the European Parliament to whom I have been indebted on a number of occasions. I am indebted to him now.
I read with interest the little squib in The Times this morning by the Minister for Europe. I was struck by the paragraph in which he argued against the calls for a referendum. He wrote:
- "Obviously there is always a discussion to be had on how one takes a major national decision. In Britain, line-by-line scrutiny of international treaties by Parliament is the norm."
Ever since I first came to the House and had the opportunity to sit through the debates on Maastricht, I have been amazed that we continue to use the treaty-making power by royal prerogative to change part of our own constitution. European treaties form part of the British constitution, as will this treaty. Governments have used the royal prerogative to change the constitution to the exclusion of the Members of this House and, consequently, those who elect us.
Mr. MacShane: The right hon. Gentleman's rebuke is justified to some extent. He gave me an excellent seminar on the subject several months ago in the Committee or Library Corridor, and I should have digested it better. The term "ratification" is used as shorthand.
Surely the right hon. Gentleman accepts that after the treaty is signed, the European Communities Act 1972 will have to be amended. The line-by-line debate will take place then. He went through the same process when the Maastricht treaty was considered—I was not a Member of the House then. The House will get its chance to consider the treaty and it will be able to reject it. If that happens, the instrument of ratification, which would take the country further along the road that would be offered under this treaty or a previous treaty, may not be deposited in Rome.
The right hon. Gentleman is intellectually and academically quite right and I hope that he will forgive my use of shorthand, but the House will debate the treaty after the intergovernmental conference.
Mr. Trimble: I was glad that the Minister started by conceding that my point was accurate, but he tried to diminish that by saying that it was academic. It is not academic—it is extremely important. Proper line-by-line scrutiny of the new constitution is desirable because it will form a significant part of the United Kingdom's constitution. It will become even more significant as the European Court of Justice interprets it in years to come. The most important aspect of the debate is the fact that views on the meaning of the treaty may come from the Treasury Benches and other parts of the House, but the only views that will matter will be those of the European Court of Justice. The hon. Member for Hornchurch (John Cryer) was quite right about the drift and drive behind the decisions of that place.
We need line-by-line scrutiny of the constitution. To achieve that, we need to make fundamental changes to the way in which we conduct our business. I have long been of the view that the royal prerogative on treaty making should not be used on any European matter.
Agreements that come out of intergovernmental conferences should come before the House in their totality so that they are scrutinised on a line-by-line basis.Debates on the issue have been criticised for involving the usual suspects, who make the usual comments, and nothing is advanced far. There is an element of truth in that. Simply having more debates would not be adequate. It is clear that the European Scrutiny Committee and other Committees have done much work. It is equally clear, however, that the public are ignorant of it. I do not want to sound dismissive, but that work is an extended consultation by the Government before the event. It expresses opinions that the Government can consider with regard to their future conduct. They can decide whether to adopt recommendations, which they can take to Europe where they might not be carried.
When hon. Members criticised the draft constitution, the Minister commented from a sedentary position words to the effect of, "We don't yet know exactly what is going happen because the output from the IGC is the crucial consideration." However, by the time something emerges from the IGC, there will be virtually no opportunity for proper scrutiny of it. In an ideal world—I have no great expectation that this will happen—the House would consider the new constitution after the IGC in the equivalent of a Standing Committee, which would allow it to be scrutinised line by line. That would provide the opportunity for a thorough debate, focused on particular articles and paragraphs. It would take a long time, but as a result we would educate the House and the public. People complain about the lack of public interest, but that happens because the debate is not focused. The knock-about in the tabloid press and the usual comments by the usual suspects in the House are treated to the same weary expression that the Minister has on his face.
We need a detailed and focused debate, but that is not happening. Instead, we get the usual comments from the usual suspects, a mini-rant from the Secretary of State and a squib from the Minister in The Times this morning. The Minister did something very bad and it is not worthy of praise. Apart from the inaccuracy that I mentioned, he did something abhorrent: instead of engaging with the argument, he tried to pin the labels of Europhobe and xenophobe on those of us who doubt the policy and complain about it. That distorts the argument. He does not want to make his argument in detail, so he casts a slur on everyone who disagrees with him by saying, "Do you want to be in Europe or do you want to leave?" He tries to convince people that if we do not want to leave Europe, we must dismiss all the concerns and questions raised, and not allow any debate.
We know that there will be no debate after the IGC. Instead of proceeding in that intellectually dishonest way, it would much better if the Government said that they would provide a proper focused debate in the House after the IGC. If we had such a debate, it would become abundantly clear that the Convention is not a tidying-up exercise, but makes major and fundamental
changes to our constitution. In those circumstances, it would be abundantly clear that it is right to hold a referendum.5.24 pm
Mr. Wayne David (Caerphilly): It is, unfortunately, all too often the case in this country that any debate on Europe is dominated by the tabloid press, and as a consequence, we get more heat than light. I certainly think that that is the case in the debate, such as it is, on the Convention on the Future of Europe and the proposed draft constitution. We have heard all kinds of wild statements about 1,000 years of history coming to an end, and reference has been made yet again to square strawberries and straight bananas. [Hon. Members: "In this debate?"] I am talking about the debate in the country—hon. Members should pay attention.
Mr. Hopkins: Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. David: I have hardly started to develop my argument, so I ask my hon. Friend to intervene later.
Much of the argument deployed in the House has been against the European Union as a whole. We have also seen such arguments used in the contributions of Members to the debate, such as it is, outside the House. The right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) has done a diligent job on the constitution, and I commend him for his work. Nevertheless, he has argued publicly not so much against the Convention's proposals, but in favour of this country having associate membership of the EU. That is simply not compatible with our present status of full membership. Conservative Members cannot have their cake and eat it. Either they should be prepared to engage in the EU, and to have a debate on the terms that are widely accepted, or they should argue for a different kind of relationship—in other words, that Britain should leave the EU. I wish that they would be honest in their arguments.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |