| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Bacon: Is the hon. Gentleman really saying that unless one accepts the debate in the terms in which it is now cast, one is being dishonest?
Mr. David: What I am saying is that if one argues for associate membership of the EU, one is arguing for a fundamental change in Britain's relationship with the Union which is tantamount to withdrawal from the EU. That is very clear. I urge the House to be much more honest in its arguments so that people outside know what is being said, rather than merely what is being implied.
On the referendum, again we have experienced more heat than light. We have heard various calls for a referendum on the Convention, but I have to say, in response to the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague), that it is important to have consistency. Where were Conservative Members in 1986, when the Single European Act introduced the largest ever single extension of qualified majority voting? Did they call for a referendum then? No, they did not. The Maastricht treaty, on economic and monetary union, provided an opportunity to advance the case for a referendum, but was such a case made?
No, it was not. I say to Conservative Members, with all due respect, that if arguments are to be credible, they have to be consistent, and theirs are neither credible nor consistent.
Mr. Hopkins: My hon. Friend is talking about consistency, and I entirely agree with him. I would have held referendums on both those issues. Does he agree, however, that at the last election and the one before, one of the great strengths of our position was that we were giving the people a choice about whether they wanted to join the euro? Would it not be equally damaging if we went into the next election as the only party refusing to have a referendum on the Convention?
Mr. David: It is important to recognise that there is a fundamental difference between the issue of the euro and that of the draft constitution. Entering the euro would represent a fundamental change in our economic relationship with the EU, but given not only the text of the draft constitution but the negotiating position that the Government have made clear—their line in the sand—it is impossible to imagine a scenario in which it would bring about a fundamental change in Britain's relationship with the EU.
I shall give an example to show what I mean. It is important that we recognise the need for modest change in the EU because of a single factor—the biggest enlargement of the EU since its creation. Ten new member states will enter the Union next year. It will not be possible to continue the present processes; we need simplification to make those processes more straightforward. We need also to consolidate the umpteen treaties that amend the 1957 treaty of Rome so that we have one consolidated text. Lay people could then understand what the EU is and how it functions. That is what the Convention debated and that is what we should be talking about today.
The text that has been presented to us is a good basis for discussion and agreement, and I welcome a number of points in it. First, I welcome the proposal for a significant extension of qualified majority voting, which is needed for the reason that I have just given. If we want the European Union to function properly and develop policies to meet people's needs and address their concerns, we must have a mechanism in place that allows those policies to be made. QMV therefore makes sense. An issue that my constituents and I are concerned about, for example, is asylum policy. It does not make any sense in a union of 25 states to have a system that requires unanimity on an issue such as asylum. We need to work through the issue and establish common ground so that the EU can develop a policy that is in Britain's national interest. QMV has a better chance of bringing that about than the rigid maintenance of the veto, no matter what.
Mr. Walter: Would the hon. Gentleman therefore disagree strongly with the German Minister of Foreign Affairs, who has said that he is not in favour of QMV in that area of policy, as it is not in Germany's national interest? Are we talking only about the UK's national interest?
Mr. David: The hon. Gentleman has made an important point. All too often when we talk about the
veto and the need to maintain it, no matter what, we do not recognise the fact that the maintenance of the veto for Britain means the maintenance of the veto for all the 15, soon to be 25, states. We should not worry about whether or not it is in our national interest and that of other countries to maintain the veto, but we should consider how we can work together to make sure that we go forward together and introduce policies that are of mutual benefit to us all. That is essentially what the debate is about.I therefore welcome the extension of QMV. Secondly, I welcome the formal inclusion of the role of national Parliaments in the EU decision-making process. Subsidiarity has been talked about before, and has been referred to in previous treaties. At last, however, a formal mechanism is beginning to take shape that recognises the crucial role of national Parliaments in ensuring that that principle is maintained. There is also recognition that national Parliaments should not operate in splendid isolation in their own countries, but should work across national boundaries, co-operating with other Parliaments in other countries.
I particularly welcome the greater role to be played by the European Council. For me, the bottom line is that the European Union is an association of independent sovereign states. If the European Council had a two-and-a-half year presidency of the European Union, renewable for another term, that would provide a much more effective strategic direction for the EU. However, I also have some concerns. It is only right that such concerns be expressed, because we are talking not about a definitive document, but about a set of proposals to be debated and determined by the IGC. First, I would like much more discussion in the IGC about the role of national Parliaments. As we have heard this afternoon, an excellent report was produced by the European Scrutiny Committee, which builds on the commendable work of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart). I believe that the IGC should agree that when two thirds of national Parliaments reject a proposal from the European Commission, the Commission should be obliged to withdraw that text, reconsider it and offer something more appropriate.
My second big reservation about the text concerns the flexibility clause—article I-17, or the passerelle clause. One of the strengths of a consolidated text such as the draft treaty is that it sets out clearly, once and for all, what the EU is all about and offers clear procedures for the way in which policies are to be implemented. It is therefore something of a contradiction for the draft constitution to include an article stating that further amendments to the treaty can be made without reference to national Governments or national ratification processes. I think that that is a contradiction in terms, so I would like the flexibility clause to be either amended or removed completely.
Those are a couple of my reservations, and I agree with many of the reservations expressed by hon. Members, but I genuinely believe that this document is an excellent starting point for a serious and honest debate in this House and in the country. I hope that we will seize the opportunity and see Europe as a construction that enhances our well-being and future, rather than as a threat that is always to be feared. I think that this text represents the start of what will therefore be a positive process.
5.35 pm
Mr. Robert Walter (North Dorset): This has been an excellent debate in which arguments have been put forcefully on both sides of the House.
I should like to start by trying to bury the myth that my party is somehow the anti-European party that wants to leave the European Union, whereas the Government party is the one that is full of enthusiasts for it. It is evident that the Labour Benches are not packed this afternoon with enthusiasts for the Union, and I am not sure whether another speaker will be found on those Benches.
Let us not forget that it was a Conservative Government who first took Britain into the European Community. In 1975, when the then Labour Government renegotiated their membership of the Union, the Labour party could not get its act together, and it was the Conservative party, led by Margaret Thatcher, that was in the forefront of the campaign for a yes vote in that referendum. It was a Conservative Government who introduced the Single European Act. It was also a Conservative Government, although not necessarily with universal acclaim, who brought forward the Maastricht treaty, which incorporated for the first time the pillared structure that put in place the concept of subsidiarity and the opt-outs for various nation states.
The Convention was, as conceived, a very good exercise in its initial stages. It set out to simplify and—dare I use the phrase?—tidy up, if only by three quarters, various issues. However, in respect of any simplification and greater accountability or transparency, it has singularly failed. The hon. Member for Hornchurch (John Cryer), who has just left the Chamber, asked who had given evidence and made submissions to the Convention. I was one of those who did so, and I did so along with a group of others. We made a submission to the Convention laying out what we thought it should do. I am not aware that we were all funded by the European Union, as he suggested, but our signatories included two former commissioners—perhaps that is what he meant—as well as two former Foreign Secretaries, three former Chancellors and a former Deputy Prime Minister to boot.
We took it upon ourselves to be positive about the process and to set out what we thought the Convention should deal with. The first thing we felt that the Convention should do was to make clear to the citizens of Europe what the EU is, what it stands for, what it seeks to do for its citizens and what it does not seek to do. We felt that it should aim to enlist greater public support for, and knowledge of, the European Union and to involve national Parliaments more closely in its decision making; to modernise the institutions of the Union so that they can operate effectively in the enlarged Union; and to give the Council greater continuity and ensure that it is clearer and more open in what it does.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |