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9.45 am
Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) for expressing his interest in, and support for, this important Bill. I agree wholeheartedly that action needs to be taken.
As for the question of whether the Minister for Rural Affairs and Local Environmental Quality should be under a statutory requirement to issue a code of practice or whether the Bill should be permissive, we considered that in Committee. I made a joke that the Minister and I, when we both had the home affairs brief—we were in government and he was a shadow home affairs Minister—had many arguments in Committee about the use of "may" and "shall". It is an old device for taking up time but, equally, it is a valid argument. My hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley was essentially asking whether we can trust the Minister to introduce a code if we use the word "may" instead of "shall". I should like to give him some encouraging news, as I believe very sincerely that we can trust the Minister. We have discussed the matter at length, and he is as committed to doing something about it as me, my hon. Friend and other Members who are here to support my Bill.
The Minister for Rural Affairs and Local Environmental Quality (Alun Michael): I am tempted to tease the hon. Gentleman, and remind him that we often argued about "may" and "shall" when the Conservatives were in power because getting action on law and order was like pushing rocks uphill. However, work on the code is almost complete. We have been working closely with the British Horse Society, and I intend to publish the code so that it can be consulted on and discussed by everyone who is concerned about the issue before the Bill becomes law. It could then be implemented in the shortest possible period, because we will already have had the opportunity to discuss and improve the code, should that be required, before the formal consultation required by the Bill.
Mr. Greenway: I am grateful to the Minister for confirming that point, which is also relevant to the question of whether the Bill should specify 31 March 2004, as specified in amendment No. 4. I hope that we will have action before then. Indeed, the Minister was unnecessarily modest in his intervention, because I know that he intends to make an announcement about the code within a matter of weeks, if not days. I therefore hope that my hon. Friend is reassured that that amendment is not necessary.
On the issue of whether or not the Bill should be permissive, when any piece of legislation requires a Minister to consult, one should never pre-empt the outcome of that consultation. My hon. Friend did not refer to another amendment that he tabled in which he lists a number of organisations that should be consulted. I agree that they should all be consulted, as we need a broad consultation. However, the problem of putting lists in Bills is that some people who ought to be consulted, but are not included in a list, never get consulted. I therefore hope that my hon. Friend accepts my assurance that we intend to consult widely, and listen to all the interested parties.
In conclusion, my hon. Friend's amendments have served a useful purpose in teasing out just how definitive is the Government's commitment to doing something about the problem. We have made tremendous progress in the six months since I first announced that I would use my place in the ballot to introduce the measure. On Third Reading, I shall pay tribute to various organisations, but at this juncture I simply say to my hon. Friends who have tabled amendments and to others who will shortly try to catch your eye to speak to them, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I am grateful for their support for urgent action, but ask them to accept that the Bill will provide the way forward that we seek. Tricky as it is to get a private Member's Bill on to the statute book, I am optimistic that, before long, the Bill will receive Royal Assent and the code will be introduced, making a significant difference to the control of ragwort in Britain.
Alun Michael: We are in danger of a mass outbreak of agreement on this issue. I agree with the hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) that we want to see action, not delay, and I certainly agree with the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) that the Bill is a useful vehicle for moving in precisely that direction.
On the issue of replacing "may" with "shall", I hope that the hon. Member for Mole Valley will accept that we are moving ahead of the necessity to do that in legislation. We are working closely with the British Horse Society to produce a draft code, which I had undertaken to do in advance of the opportunity for legislation arising. The draft code has been prepared and is a reality, so there is no need to impose an obligation on the Secretary of State to produce a code; we are already virtually there. It will be published on a voluntary basis in advance of the legislation. Nor do I believe that a mandatory requirement is necessary for the future. There will be a code, and statutory obligations need to be proportionate. None of us knows what the future may hold and circumstances may change. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will accept that the modern approach to legislation is to be permissive rather than prescriptive, and that is the approach that we should follow in relation to the code of conduct.
- "including the National Farmers Union, the Local Government Association, the Bridleways Association, the Pony Club, Riding for the Disabled, the Council for the Protection of Rural England, the National Trust, and the Country Landowners Association"
Mr. David Wilshire (Spelthorne): As the author of that list, I think the Minister is right to chastise me for leaving some organisations out, and when I speak to my amendment I shall explain why it is there. No offence was intended to those that I should have known about but did not include in the list.
Alun Michael: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that clarification and I am sure that various organisations' feelings will be assuaged by his comments. As I say, we are perfectly prepared to give the undertaking here today that each of those organisations in his list will be among those consulted, as well as the British Horse Society, which has been working with us already on this, and any other appropriate bodies, so that all those who have an interest in the matter have an opportunity to comment fully on the code, initially on the voluntary basis to which I referred and subsequently in the formal period of consultation that is a requirement within the Bill.
Amendment No. 7 refers to revision after five years. It is appropriate for there to be a capacity to revise the code of practice, and that is allowed for in the Bill, but it does not lay down a time scale for doing so. It may be necessary to revise the code from time to time, but that should be based on the experience of those who are concerned with the issue, and it should be proportionate. In other words, if it ain't broke, we should not bother to fix it. If there is a need to update and revise the code, that should happen, and it should happen in less than five years should that be necessary, but I am not convinced of the need for a statutory time scale.
Amendment No. 4 is linked to amendment No. 3 and requires the code to be laid from 31 March 2004. As there is no requirement in the Bill to prepare a code, the amendment would automatically fall. An obligation to make a code by a specific date would not be consistent with the permissive power to make a code. It is worth pointing out that, were it successful, the amendment could hold up our proceedings, which I am sure is not the intention. As I have said, we have already prepared a code and a draft is being published shortly. I hope that we will be in a position to lay the code before Parliament early in 2004 consistent with the Bill and to introduce it in spring 2004. If we were required to make the code
from 31 March 2004, we would not be able to lay the code before Parliament before that date and that would risk holding up the timetable of events. I am certain that that is not the intention and I explain it merely to encourage hon. Members to agree that we should complete the informal work on the code as quickly as possible, obtain agreement on it, and then proceed at a fast clip through the formalities as soon as the legislation reaches the statute book. Because of the work that will have been done in advance, the ground will be clear for the code to come into effect in the shortest possible time required under the Bill.
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