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Mr. Leslie: I am sorry to disabuse the hon. Gentleman of those views. I know that this will be difficult for the Conservative party to understand, but we are making the change as a matter of principle. It is a major constitutional advance, and I have set out our reasons for the change. On who will appoint the independent judicial appointments commission, the papers suggest some ideas, one of which is to have an independent appointments panel comprising a senior civil servant, senior judge and senior public figure, perhaps independent but available in public life, such as the Commissioner for Public Appointments. That is the right way to deal with who appoints the appointers. Again, I commend those papers to the House.
Dr. Jack Cunningham (Copeland): Is it not obvious that the announcement will be widely welcomed by everyone who is sensible and practical about the long-overdue constitutional reform proposals? Is it not instructive, especially in respect of the supreme court, that ever since 1945, with the reconstruction of Europe and Commonwealth independence, successive British Governments have always insisted on the creation of a supreme court, quite separate from any parliamentary or legislative actions, in the countries that were receiving independence? As it is one issue—the removal of the Law Lords from the House of Lords—raised by the Joint Committee on House of Lords Reform, can my hon. Friend tell us when the Government will respond to the other recommendations in that report?
Mr. Leslie: The Government intend to respond shortly to the second report of the Joint Committee. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend's work and stewardship of that body. The creation of an independent judicial appointments commission and the step to have a supreme court taken out of the second House is long overdue. An Act of Parliament was passed as far back as 1873 to do just that, but the Government who followed that Administration decided not to commence it. So here we are ensuring that we take a long-overdue step forward.
Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire): As the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs will remain responsible for ensuring the independence of the judiciary in England and Wales, and as that gentleman will be appointed by the Prime Minister, are we not witnessing the subjugation rather than the separation of powers?
Mr. Leslie: No. The arrangement was that the Lord Chancellor was appointed by the Prime Minister to be a judge while sitting in Cabinet as a politician. As I said, consideration will be given to whether we should enshrine in the responsibilities of the new post of Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs a duty to safeguard the independence of the judiciary. That is one question that we have posed and it merits detailed consideration.
Mr. Clive Soley (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd's Bush): Before this dotty idea that somehow or other it would be
politically correct to have women judges escapes from the Tory Front Benches, can we make it crystal clear that confidence in justice is largely brought about by the full involvement of a cross-section of the community in the judicial system? That being so, the fact that we have not had a woman judge is a serious criticism of our system over many years. It is not, however, a criticism of the existing holders of those posts.
Mr. Leslie: My hon. Friend is right to say that a woman has never been appointed to sit in our final Court of Appeal; nor has a black or minority ethnic judge been appointed to the High Court in England and Wales. Diversity is important. Our judiciary should reflect the public on whose behalf they seek to implement judicial decisions. Creating an independent judicial appointments commission, with a broad spectrum of people doing the job of selection, will enrich the process so that we have a more diverse judiciary that is appointed on merit.
Annabelle Ewing (Perth): Surely the Government's announcement represents consultation after the fact because the decision to establish a UK supreme court was taken last month in Downing street at the time of the botched reshuffle. There was certainly no prior consultation in Scotland. It is not clear from today's proposals whether the necessary criterion of independence from the English legal system will be secured for Scotland. Surely the time is now right in post-devolution Scotland to repatriate the final appellate jurisdiction to the Scottish courts. It surely remains an anomaly that the United Kingdom has any jurisdiction over the matter whatever.
Mr. Leslie: The hon. Lady suggests a major change to the arrangements that have worked well for some time under which the House of Lords hears cases as the final Court of Appeal, which we envisage will be conducted through the creation of a UK supreme court. Although there are detailed issues in the consultation paper that affect Scotland, the fundamental separation of the Scottish system will continue and be entirely respected. It is important to keep those separate jurisdictions. It is also important that we have a supreme court that is taken out of the political realm and the second House of Parliament. I hope that the hon. Lady will come round to the view that that is reasonable.
Mr. David Kidney (Stafford): Does my hon. Friend share my view that all reasonable people will welcome the proposals on judicial appointments and the supreme court as a considerable enhancement of the separation of powers under our unwritten constitution? Will he confirm that the consultation process is precisely that announced at the time of the reshuffle, but that some chose not to hear the message on that day?
Mr. Leslie: My hon. Friend is entirely right. I know that he has been involved in several discussions and documents that have prompted thought on some of the major issues. Circumscribing the role of Ministers and the power that they have, especially in the appointments
process, are important changes. That is a major step forward, which I know that my hon. Friends will welcome.
Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham): Does the Minister understand that many of us feel that he has got his priorities wrong? Is this not simply change for the sake of change and at additional cost? What will the new supreme court be able to do that cannot as well be done by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council and in the House of Lords? If he wants to make a real improvement, why does he not transfer responsibility for constitutional and legal matters from an unelected Secretary of State sitting in a largely nominated House to an elected Secretary of State sitting in this House?
Mr. Leslie: The creation of the post of Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs is a major advance. It is difficult to see how a Lord Chancellor could be answerable in the House of Commons. The initiative of a Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs should give both Houses an opportunity for further scrutiny and accountability. The right hon. and learned Gentleman suggests that such a matter is a low priority that does not need addressing. If there is a perception of a blurred line between the political and the judicial, surely we all have a duty to address ourselves to it. That is one of the many reasons why we have done so.
Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test): May I add my welcome to that of my hon. Friends for these long-overdue reforms, especially the proposal to establish an independent judicial appointments commission? Serving members of that commission might have an opportunity to become members of the judiciary. What arrangements does my hon. Friend intend to make concerning those appointments—either while those people are serving or after their term has ended?
Mr. Leslie: The consultation paper suggests that about 15 people should form the independent judicial appointments commission—roughly equal numbers from the judiciary, legal background and non-legal background. It would clearly be inappropriate for members sitting on a judicial appointments commission to hear their own personal applications. I am sure that arrangements can be made, and I shall certainly bear in mind any issues on the matter.
Mr. Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon): If the Government are determined to pursue these botched proposals that in respect of judicial appointments will destroy a system that works perfectly well, will they now consider going for elected judges rather than another round of appointed cronies?
Mr. Leslie: The Conservative party seems to innovate policy on its feet from moment to moment. If a Conservative Back Bencher wishes to put forward such views, I suppose that that is entirely possible. We do not envisage having elected judges. We feel that the vast majority of important aspects and criteria of the current judicial system should be kept and enhanced. One way of enhancing that system would be to ensure that the
appointments process is properly seen to be independent, and to ensure that we insulate it from, perhaps, questions of political interference.
Mrs. Anne Campbell (Cambridge): I warmly welcome my hon. Friend's statement. Although I agree that the current system works well, it is shocking that a woman has never been appointed to sit in the final Court of Appeal, nor a black and ethnic minority judge appointed to the High Court. Will my hon. Friend ensure that rather than just leaving these matters to the independent judicial appointments commission, he consults widely with community groups and others concerned about the promotion of equality so that we get a more diverse group of people in our highest courts?
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