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Mr. Lansley: How confident is the Minister, therefore, that were Ofcom to set its general conditions in ways that were designed around that objective, as distinct from those that are provided for in the EU directives, that setting of general conditions would not become subject to legal challenge?
Mr. Timms: I do not think that Ofcom will do that in isolation. It will have regard to all those matters that are required of it, including those, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says, that have been derived directly from the directives. Perhaps I ought to agree, too, that this is entirely separate from the universal service obligation process, which, as he says, comes from another part of the Bill. It is important not to confuse those two.
Government amendment (a) in lieu of Lords amendment No. 3 agreed to.
Lords amendment No. 4 agreed to.
Tessa Jowell: I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): With this it will be convenient to take Lords amendments Nos. 33 to 38, 43, 47 to 54, 147, 194, 196, 198 and 205.
Tessa Jowell: Lords amendment No. 5 amends clause 3(3), which sets out a number of matters to which Ofcom must have regard, in particular, in performing its duties under clause 3(1). The amendment adds the purposes of public service television broadcasting to those matters. Those purposes are detailed in clause 260(4) of the Bill.
The Government listened to the strength of argument in another place that the position of public service broadcasting, to which we are fully committed, within Ofcom's general duties should be secured. This amendment does that. I should explain that the reference is to the purposes of public service television
broadcasting because that is provided for and defined in the Bill. Public service radio broadcasting, which is not mentioned in the Bill, is provided by the BBC and is secured through the BBC charter and agreement. Amendments Nos. 43, 54 and 198 simply tidy up related parts of the Bill. Amendment No. 198 provides for the construction of the
- "purposes of public service television broadcasting in the United Kingdom"
- "the BBC Charter and Agreement"
Amendments Nos. 34 to 38, 52, 194, 196 and 205 are consequential and ensure that the policy is applied consistently throughout the Bill. Having reflected further on the arguments put forward by the Opposition on this issue in the House, and again in another place, the Government felt able to accept the principle that it would be right to keep open the possibility of Ofcom's regulatory functions in respect of the BBC—other than those contained in the Bill—being placed in the BBC charter and not solely in the BBC agreement, as the Bill originally provided. Amendments Nos. 47 to 53 add detail to the definition of public service broadcasting in clause 260. The areas to which changes are made are educational programmes, programmes facilitating civic understanding, programmes dealing with religion and other beliefs, and children's and young people's television and drama. I will now set out briefly what each of those changes will achieve.
Amendment No. 47 requires broadcasters to provide comprehensive and authoritative coverage of news and current affairs to facilitate civic understanding, in addition to the requirement that such programmes should facilitate fair and well-informed debate on news and current affairs. This amendment has been made following intense discussion in another place of the importance of broadcasters facilitating understanding of democratic and civic processes, such as proceedings in Parliament.
Amendment No. 48 expands the requirement for broadcasters to provide programmes on educational matters to include
- "programmes of an educational nature and . . . other programmes of educative value".
Amendments Nos. 49, 50 and 53 relate to programmes dealing with religion in the public service remit. Two broad changes have been made to this provision. The first, in amendment No. 49, expands the reference to religion in the matters listed in subsection (6) to "religion and other beliefs". Amendment No. 53 defines "belief" to include collective belief in or
adherence to ethical systems or philosophies or mystical or transcendental doctrines. The second change, in amendment No. 50, makes it clear that the reference to religion within the remit encompasses both factual programmes about religion—such as news, information or the history of different religions and other beliefs—and programmes of a religious nature, including those portraying acts of worship and other ceremonies and practices. Amendment No. 53 also defines the term "drama", in response to concerns raised in another place. The definition makes it clear that the term "drama" as used in clause 260(6)(b) includes contemporary and other drama in a variety of different formats. We consider that this new provision encompasses new ideas and new writing, as well as the wide range of formats of television drama.Amendment No. 51 expands the requirement for programming for children and young people from
- "a suitable quantity of high quality and original programmes"
- "a suitable quantity and range"
Mr. Whittingdale: I might have given the impression during earlier proceedings on the Bill that I wish to speak at considerable length whenever the BBC is mentioned. Indeed, that was the impression given by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Allan), who has now left the Chamber. However, I do not propose to speak at length this evening.
I welcome the fact that the Government have listened to arguments suggesting that the charter should be allowed to incorporate future developments that might lead to Ofcom taking additional responsibilities for the BBC, which my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) suggested in Committee. The Secretary of State knows that one of our principal complaints about the Bill is the fact that the biggest broadcaster in the country is excluded from Ofcom's full regulatory remit. We continue to believe that that is wrong and that it should be corrected in the future. The Government have argued that it would be suitable for the issue to be considered at the time of charter renewal. The amendment is helpful because if the Government decide to extend Ofcom's role to oversee the BBC's activities, the Bill will facilitate that.
Given that everything is wrapped up in the renewal of the BBC's charter, is the Secretary of State able to say more about precisely how that will be undertaken and, especially, about how her Department intends to review the charter's current operation before conclusions are reached about future changes? She knows that we have strong feelings about that. She said in public that there will be a far-reaching review but she has given few details about how it will be carried out.
It is an appropriate time to welcome strongly the Government's agreement in the House of Lords that the BBC should be subject to scrutiny by the National Audit
Office. We argued strongly for that and although we have not achieved 100 per cent. of what we wanted, at least the door of the BBC has been opened to the NAO for the first time. That is in the BBC's interests and certainly in those of the taxpayer, so we have achieved a vastly improved situation.
Mr. Lansley: I, like my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale), welcome the Government's acceptance that when the BBC charter is renewed, it might be appropriate for Ofcom to be given functions that would be best specified in the charter rather than in the agreement and the licence. Indeed, the amendments head off at the pass a risk that might have otherwise arisen because subsequent to charter renewal, the BBC governors could have been invited under the agreement to accept Ofcom's responsibilities and functions yet wish, or think that they had a duty, to resist that due to the framing of the agreement. If Parliament wants Ofcom to have responsibilities, it may advise Ministers and they can decide that such responsibilities should be reflected directly in the charter. I welcome that because I argued for it in Committee.
The hon. Member for Milton Keynes, North-East (Brian White) earlier chided parliamentary counsel for their lack of imagination about the word "citizen". One must recognise that parliamentary counsel occasionally must go above and beyond the call of duty—defining beliefs in legislation is certainly beyond the call of duty. I hope that the definition is not tested too much in the courts.
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