Westminster Hall
Thursday 17 July 2003
[Sir Alan Haselhurst in the Chair]
Domestic Violence
Oral Answers to Questions
Refuge Accommodation
2.30 pm
2. Mr. David Kidney (Stafford): What public funding is available to support the provision of refuge accommodation for those fleeing domestic violence. [125464]
9. Mrs. Helen Clark (Peterborough): What support the Government give to women's refuges. [125472]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Yvette Cooper) : The Office of the Deputy Prime Minister is investing £8.9 million capital funding and the Housing Corporation is providing a further £9.9 million capital funding from within its budget for refuge accommodation. In addition, support for women in refuges and other accommodation in respect of circumstances of domestic violence is also supported through the supporting people programme. This year, that stands at £34 million.
Mr. Kidney : Does the Minister agree that the providers of refuges, such as Women's Aid, do sterling work in providing places of safety for those escaping from violence? Does she accept that they do more than just provide a roof over people's heads, but give help in identifying legal advice, careers advice and child care? In developing the Government's policy for vulnerable children, does she agree with me and the Women's Aid branch in Stafford about the need for more specialist services for children, especially black and ethnic minority children who witness or suffer domestic violence themselves?
Yvette Cooper : My hon. Friend is right. Support for children must be a priority. Women's refuges throughout the country do an immense amount of excellent work, usually in conjunction with local authorities and specialist services. Considerable help is already provided. The supporting people programme can be used in some circumstances to provide for child care support, too. My hon. Friend is right to identify specialist support, especially for the black and ethnic minority community. We have identified that in the consultation paper as an area where we want feedback because we need to know especially about the level of unmet need throughout the country and what further needs to be done. Investment in refuge places has increased substantially over the past few years, but we must know what further provision is necessary.
Mr. Philip Hammond (Runnymede and Weybridge): I invite the Minister to look at the provision of refuge
accommodation within the wider context of social housing. Does she agree that there is a danger that, if there is no adequate availability of social housing for people to move to and begin their lives over again, creating additional refuge places will not begin to solve the problem? Given that the number of households that live in bed-and-breakfast accommodation has tripled since 1997 and the average number of social housing units completed has fallen by a third over the same period, how do the Government—looking at a joined-up approach throughout all areas of housing provision—intend to ensure not only that there is an adequate number of refuge places, but that there is adequate availability of housing for people to move to from refuges and to rebuild their lives?
Yvette Cooper : For many families suffering from domestic violence, refuge accommodation is not the appropriate response. Some can stay in their own home with appropriate support; others need different accommodation. We have substantially increased investment in refuge accommodation—capital investment for this financial year is £18.8 million compared with £2.8 million in 1997—and the number of refuge places has increased. It is right that we should ensure that there is appropriate accommodation, which is why for the first time each local authority must set out a homelessness strategy and examine the unmet need in its area and all the different types of housing need that must be met. That is also why we have set bed-and-breakfast accommodation targets, on which we are making significant progress. We need to reduce the number of families in such accommodation.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. Although the Minister did not say so, I understood that she was replying also to Question 9, in which case, I call Mrs. Helen Clark.
Mrs. Clark : I welcome the answers that the Minister has given to date. I speak as the MP for Peterborough and our refuge needs more money because we have the highest level of domestic violence in Cambridgeshire—29.1 per cent. of all crimes of domestic violence that are logged. Workers at the Peterborough women's centre believe that refuges are not the only solution. Many women do not want to flee their homes. Why should they? An integrated approach is best—one that involves police, social services and women's aid agencies, as well as women's centres such as the excellent one that we have in Peterborough. Do the Government have plans to progress with such an approach?
Yvette Cooper : My hon. Friend is right to say that the most effective programmes to support women and families in such situations involve different agencies and examine a wide range of options for families. Interestingly, in Harrow work has been done to help families stay in their own homes by improving security and support for them in their homes, where that is an option. Many people would prefer that option to feeling that they have been turfed out of their homes by domestic violence. My hon. Friend is right to say that a
wide range of options needs to be explored in every case, and I commend the work to that effect that is being done in Peterborough.
Mr. Hammond : The Minister referred to bed-and-breakfast accommodation, and said that sometimes it is unsuitable for people in this predicament. The Government recognise that about 15 per cent. of all homelessness is caused by domestic violence. Against that benchmark, can the Minister tell the House what percentage of people in bed-and-breakfast accommodation are there as a result of domestic violence?
Yvette Cooper : I do not have those figures to hand, but I will be happy to write to the hon. Gentleman about that.
The Minister for Children (Margaret Hodge) : It may help if I add to the spirit of this cross-ministerial response. Of those households that have been accepted as homeless and in priority need, only 15 per cent. were placed in refuges; 30 per cent. were placed in council or housing association properties; and 25 per cent. decided to stay with friends or relatives. Refuges are important, but there can be more suitable accommodation for some individuals and their families.
Rape Crisis Centres
4. Bob Russell (Colchester): What (a) financial and (b) other assistance is given to national umbrella organisations representing rape crisis helpline groups which deal with victims of domestic violence.[125466]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Paul Goggins) : Since April 2001, the Home Office has been providing core funding to the Rape Crisis Federation. The grant to the RCF in 2002–03 was £432,000 and we plan to offer a similar level of funding during 2003–04. Home Office officials regularly meet RCF representatives to discuss that organisation's work.
Bob Russell : I thank the Minister for that positive response and I hope that we can build on it. I am sure that he is aware that the Rape Crisis Federation Wales and England is struggling with funding for setting up a national database for local rape crisis centres to collate figures of sexual violence—which, sadly, is committed in the family environment as well as by strangers.
I understand that an application for funding was recently made to the Home Office because a number of centres around the country are closing as a result of a lack of funding. We need to realise that these centres have not only a voluntary aspect, but paid professional staff, too. I should like to place on the record the excellent work of the Colchester rape crisis line. We need the centres around the country to assist the increasing numbers of households where domestic violence is taking place. In the last 24 hours it has been announced that, in the past year, the number of recorded rapes has gone up by 27 per cent.
Paul Goggins : It is true that the grant made to the Rape Crisis Federation is intended to help it to provide
core national services; they may or may not include the kind of database referred to by the hon. Gentleman. Finding funding for the 43 local rape crisis centres is something that the Government view as a local responsibility. Two or three of the centres have difficulties at the moment. We are working with the Department of Health to ensure that, wherever possible, local rape crisis centres can discuss with the local primary care trusts how funding might be gained from the primary care trusts. The work of local rape crisis centres and helplines is absolutely essential in providing a local access point and local support. It is critical that those centres should be able to continue their important work.Funding
5. Ms Debra Shipley (Stourbridge): What steps the Government are taking to ensure that (a) the basic standards for under-eights' day care services are met for the children who live in women's refuges and (b) statutory funding is provided to enable these services to be provided. [125467]
The Minister for Children (Margaret Hodge) : The sure start unit has worked closely with colleagues in Ofsted to recognise the unique position of women's refuges in providing child care. The national standards for under-eights' day care, introduced in 2001, represent a minimum quality baseline and those standards, through an agreed protocol with refuge organisations, are being interpreted flexibly by Ofsted when it inspects women's refuges. Local authorities are funded to promote new child care places generally, and they will work in partnership with refuges where appropriate.
Ms Shipley : I thank my hon. Friend for her reply. However, the latest research shows that, when asked, children say that what they most value in refuges is safety and someone to talk to. Given the Government measures to ensure that those support services and safety measures will not be reduced, will she give an assurance that there will be adequate statutory funding to meet national standards?
Margaret Hodge : I can assure my hon. Friend that in the new environment of a children, young persons and families department, the integrated support necessary to meet the needs of children, particularly those in vulnerable and distressed circumstances, can be better addressed where local authorities have statutory obligations in relation to children and their families. We clearly have to ensure that those statutory obligations are met, particularly in relation to women with children in women's refuges.
Mrs. Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest): I am sure that the Minister will recognise and be well aware that women's refuges are not only a refuge for women but for children, who suffer terribly when there is domestic violence. I am sure that we agree on that. However, the Minister might not be aware that at the Peckham women's refuge, for example, there is provision for only 20 hours of social service work for up to 32 children, which, as I am sure she will quickly calculate, is less than one hour per week per child. The children involved are at their most vulnerable and they need the most help.
I was very concerned about the statement made by the Secretary of State for Education and Skills this morning about funding. We are all aware that social services funding is already squeezed. My concern is that, under the new arrangements announced this morning, there will be even less funding for such matters. Will the Minister give me an assurance that there will be proper funding?
Margaret Hodge : The hon. Lady is right to draw attention to the fact that there are more children than adults in women's refuges, which clearly need to provide services that reflect the needs of the individuals occupying them. I cannot comment on the issue that the hon. Lady has brought up, but if she writes to me, I will certainly investigate it. I repeat the assurance given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Skills both this morning and last night that children's social services budgets will be protected if not increased in the transfer of money and responsibilities to our Department.
Children
6. Linda Gilroy (Plymouth, Sutton): What action the Government are taking to protect children and young people who are affected by domestic violence. [125468]
12. Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West): What steps the Government are taking to provide further support to the victims of domestic violence, with particular reference to children. [125476]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Miss Melanie Johnson) : Local authority social services departments make a child and family assessment, undertaken according to the framework for the assessment of children in need and their families, and provide services in the light of the outcome of that assessment. Those services should be tailored to the individual needs, including protection needs, of the child, just as they should be for any child in need.
The Government are determined to prevent domestic violence happening or recurring, and to protect and support all victims of domestic violence. Their strategy for tackling domestic violence and for dealing with children who are victims is set out in the consultation paper, "Safety and Justice: The Government's Proposals on Domestic Violence", which was published in June.
Linda Gilroy : I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for that reply. Perhaps she accepts that child contact is one of the most challenging issues that needs to be dealt with. Will she work with colleagues to ensure that, in the work of children's committees, children's safety is put first when domestic violence cases come before courts? Does she agree that what we most need to hear about in response to that consultation document, "Safety and Justice", is people's concerns and ideas on how we can improve our policies on that subject?
Miss Johnson : My hon. Friend makes some useful points about the focus in policy, which reflects the focus in the "Safety and Justice" paper. Guidelines have been produced for the courts and professionals on how to deal with child contact and domestic violence issues.
Also, funding has been provided for child contact centres. We recognise the need to go on working with victims to make sure that they are put at the front of the issue, and to increase the legal protection available to them and their families.
Dr. Starkey : My question is directed primarily at the Minister for Children. What advice is given to local education authorities on children who have to move because their families are victims of domestic violence? What is the advice to local education authorities on maintaining educational continuity and, if necessary, providing transport, so that children can continue to go to the school that they attend, even if they have been forced to move in order to remove themselves from domestic violence?
The Minister for Children (Margaret Hodge) : My hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to the fact that continuity for children in their schooling is crucial, particularly when they have experienced emotional upheaval as a result of domestic violence, separation and moving away from home. One of the advantages of the new department for children, young people and families will be that we can provide a more coherent and integrated response to children's needs, both through the education service and teachers and through the coming together of those people with others.
We announced the first 35 children's trusts last week. They will pool the previously separate budgets for education, social services and health at a local level, and I hope that they will also include services, such as Connexions and the youth offending teams. Bringing all those together will allow a more coherent response to the child's needs.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham): First, I declare an interest as the patron of Brighton's women refuge. Proceedings today are slightly confusing, because a lot of questions seem to have dropped out and others are not based on those printed on the Order of Business.
I remind the Minister that three out of five children suffering from abuse have mothers who are experiencing domestic violence; that in nine out of 10 cases, children are present in the same or next room while violence is going on; and that children who have witnessed violence are more likely to be either abusers or victims themselves.
In the light of such statistics, schools are often best placed to detect incidences of abuse or violence in domestic scenarios. Indeed, the failure of schools to detect such abuse has been the basis of some of the worst cases of child death. What guidance is in place for a joined-up approach between teachers, school nurses and social workers to spot children who may be the victims of abuse, and to spot the mothers—in some cases, fathers—of those children, who may be subject to domestic violence but who have not presented themselves to the authorities? Women who are subject to domestic violence approach 11 different agencies, on average, before receiving the help that they need.
Margaret Hodge : The Education Act 2002 places a duty on education authorities to protect children at risk,
including those at risk of witnessing or experiencing domestic violence. The hon. Gentleman will know that information sharing, which is central to minimising the risk of abuse or harm to young children, is the subject of a number of experiments being conducted by local government and funded by us. Information sharing will be critical. He will also accept that the proposals that arose from the inquiry into the tragic death of Victoria Climbié will strengthen some relationships at local level. I draw his attention to the development of children's funds, which will provide a more coherent, cross-professional response to children's needs, bringing in the education services and others.
Miss Johnson : The hon. Gentleman's made some useful points about the number of people with whom women have contact before they receive help. 30 per cent. of domestic violence starts during pregnancy. If abuse has started, it often intensifies during pregnancy. The recommendations of the latest confidential inquiry into maternal deaths, published by the National Institute for Clinical Excellence in 2001, underline the importance of initiating work with pregnant women. In response, the Department of Health is funding a pilot of antenatal screening for domestic violence at the North Bristol NHS Trust, in which 80 community-based midwives were recruited in the hope of detecting abuse of women earlier in the domestic violence cycle and of providing more support and intervention at that stage.
Mr. Loughton : I am grateful that the new Minister for Children responded to my question. Will she confirm that she will be taking such matters under her wing in her new Ministry? Will she give more detail about how they will be approached in the Green Paper because, despite having a debate yesterday, we still have no answers. We received more answers to the questions that we asked yesterday by reading the leaked Government documents in The Times today.
The point about sharing information, which is crucial and about which I asked the Minister several questions yesterday, has not been answered. As the law stands, information sharing still cannot take place. Will she give a firm commitment to the House that that matter will be dealt with properly and in detail, when the Green Paper is eventually published, hopefully on the first day back in September?
Margaret Hodge : As the hon. Gentleman knows from last night's debate, we continue to implement all possible action that is necessary to improve information sharing. It is central to supporting better child protection practices throughout the country, particularly in local authority areas. In May we issued guidance to all relevant bodies to improve understanding of what information can be shared under human rights legislation. That guidance has already gone out and we shall be taking further steps. Pilots are being conducted on how information and computer technology can facilitate information sharing and flag up circumstances where children have come to the attention of different people or authorities in different circumstances. We need to see how those pilots work before deciding how best to implement them at national level.
The hon. Gentleman started by talking about the role of teachers. The Department for Education and Skills has introduced a number of initiatives in that regard. Under the healthy schools standard, we look for evidence that issues of child protection and domestic violence are covered. Under citizenship education, which we introduced, we look for information to be given. Before taking on our new responsibilities, we published an information pack for those who work with young people and in particular for teachers, so that they are more aware of what to consider and who to tell when they find evidence of abuse.
Mr. Andrew Love (Edmonton): I apologise for being late, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Domestic violence is a major cause of homelessness, which is an acute problem in London and the rest of the south-east because of the shortage of affordable accommodation. A series of support services is available for those who are placed in temporary accommodation and refuges, but only 15 per cent. of homeless families are placed in refuges. The others go into other forms of temporary accommodation, which are often far away from the communities from which they originate. How can we ensure that the support services available to families in other forms of temporary accommodation are as good as those in refuges?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Yvette Cooper) : I can answer that question. My hon. Friend is right to say that people go into a variety of types of accommodation. To follow up the question asked by the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), I can clarify that of those who were accepted as homeless and in priority need because of domestic violence, 15 per cent. went into refuges, 25 per cent. were staying with friends or relatives, 13 per cent. were in temporary council or housing association properties, 13 per cent. were in hostels and 6 per cent. were in bed-and-breakfast hotels.
My hon. Friend is right to say that the quality of the provision of additional support in women's refuges can be considerable. Obviously, the support available will be different in different types of accommodation, but the supporting people programme provides councils with £1.4 billion overall to pay for additional support for those with particular needs who are in supported accommodation. Of that, £34 million is spent in relation to domestic violence, which can include all sorts of support or the specialist additional support that is needed in other types of temporary accommodation. Local authorities can also provide different types of specialist support in different ways for those in various forms of accommodation.
I referred to the work being done in Harrow in London, which involves an innovative approach that includes providing help for people to stay in their own homes and other expert support for people in different types of accommodation. My hon. Friend is right—we must respond to the particular concerns or needs of an individual family and not expect one size or approach to suit all.
Dr. Jenny Tonge (Richmond Park): The Minister will know that the best-laid plans often fail because of a
shortage of social workers and other professional staff, and the money to make necessary interventions to stop violence. What plans does she have to increase the number of social workers and the resources to pay for them? Will she tell us whether she intends specifically to target money for children who are victims of violence and live in refuges?
Margaret Hodge : We have already increased our investment in the social work force, but I accept the hon. Lady's point that there is a shortage of social workers. One of the key challenges faced by our new Department is how to encourage more people into social work, train them effectively and retain them. One of my ambitions is to raise the status of and value given to social workers in society and ensure that the esteem in which they are held marries with the difficult job that we ask of them.
We ran a national campaign to recruit more social workers. We invested more money and I am pleased to say that the number of people training to be social workers has gone up by 6.5 per cent. We are moving in the right direction, but that does not take away from the challenges that the hon. Lady knows that we face in our communities and throughout the work force. That is one of the central issues that I must tackle. Children who have witnessed or experienced domestic violence must be a priority group on whom we focus resources.
Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury): I pay tribute to the excellent work of the Rising Sun women's refuge in my constituency, which I was privileged to visit last month. We must get to the roots underlying domestic violence. The role of substance abuse, in particular of alcohol and drugs, in domestic violence is large. Whatever the difficulties in reporting the issues of the huge recorded increase in violence against women, including domestic violence, in this morning's press, the figures for substance abuse—for example the double digit increase in several categories of drug abuse—are absolutely undeniable. I suggest to Ministers that one way to tackle the scourge of domestic violence and child abuse early in the process is to identify drug addicts and alcoholics at a young age, and make many more places available for treatment.
Miss Johnson : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making those points. They resonate with the current situation and the Government's work on drugs, including investment in, and a strategy of, identifying drug misuse early and ensuring that it is effectively dealt with, both through the courts and through providing support and treatment to help addicts get off drugs.
I also alert the hon. Gentleman to the alcohol harm reduction strategy. Work is being carried out by the Prime Minister's strategy unit and will soon be published. It will provide a strategy on alcohol harm in society, a question that is at least as serious as that of drugs.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I allowed the edges to be blurred slightly as we had time available. As we move on, I ask hon. Members to respect the content of the question as far as possible. Otherwise, I may be obliged to call them out of order.
Children (Parental Contacts)
8. Ms Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley): If the Government will make a statement on measures in place to ensure incidents of domestic violence are considered when decisions are taken on arrangements for children having contact with parents. [125470]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs (Mr. David Lammy) : The Children Act 1989 ensures that the welfare of the child is paramount in all decisions on contact. Guidelines were issued in 2001 to ensure that incidents of domestic violence are considered when decisions on contact are taken. In addition, we will amend the contact and residency application forms to allow for details of domestic violence to be raised early on in the application process.
Ms Munn : I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. However, like me, he will know that far too many children are killed during contact visits and mothers killed when an ex-partner comes to pick up a child for such a visit. Will my hon. Friend consider reviewing the guidelines and ensure that proper reviews take place into the deaths of children in such situations so that lessons can be learned and more robust procedures can be put in place? The deaths of young children and women in such situations must stop.
Mr. Lammy : I know that my hon. Friend has tremendous experience in this area. We are surveying the guidelines—the last survey was conducted at the end of 2002—and we hope to come forward with initial results shortly. The survey on the practical effect of the guidelines comes to an end in 2004, but we know that they have already had an effect on case law and a Court of Appeal decision. Furthermore, we want to see a multi-agency approach to the guidelines to ensure that the situations that my hon. Friend outlined in her question are avoided as far as possible.
Mrs. Caroline Spelman (Meriden): I am most grateful to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for drawing our attention to not blurring the edges of these important questions. I had hoped to put this point on Question 1, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mrs. Fitzsimons), because the issue of guidance to judges on child contact is important but fairly specific. The hon. Member for Rochdale may be able to catch your eye, as the issue has crept into other questions, which has the effect of blunting the impact of the focus that we must give it.
The Green Paper on domestic violence states that the guidelines issued to courts on parental contact are being reviewed, and we have just heard the Minister say that they are being surveyed and that amendments may follow at the end of the monitoring period. However, that is against the context of a 50 per cent. increase in the number of contact orders since 1999—a startling increase from 41,862 to 61,356 last year. The surveying process is taking place against a background of a huge number of extra contact orders being granted.
As a constituency case revealed to me only this week, appeals by the non-violent parent for supervision to be in place before the contact goes ahead still seem to go
unheeded. It is an incredible anomaly that a person convicted of a schedule 1 offence is not allowed to drive a school bus but can be granted unsupervised contact with the child that he or she has abused. This is a real issue of child protection: can we really afford to wait another year? What immediate action are the Government taking to protect children currently in such contact arrangements?
Mr. Lammy : The hon. Lady makes her points with some passion, because she is right—this is important. However, we issued guidelines, which are having an effect, and it is right for the Government and the agencies involved to draw empirical evidence on that effect. The hon. Lady will also know that it is for the courts to determine the contact arrangements for children, which they will want to ensure take place in a safe environment. The circumstances will depend on the particular case.
We issued the guidelines relatively recently and we must now see that they have an effect. Although I understand the urgency with which the hon. Lady makes the point, it is right that the Government should act sensibly and properly on the basis—
Mrs. Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest): Slowly.
Mr. Lammy : This is an important issue, on which we do not want to make partisan points. [Interruption.]
Ms Debra Shipley (Stourbridge): It is not a partisan point.
Mr. Lammy : I say to Opposition Members that it is this Government who have acted.[Interruption.]
Ms Shipley : I agree with the hon. Lady.
Mrs. Spelman : Thank you for allowing me to respond, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The constituency case is urgent; it means that in 48 hours' time the mother will have to take the child to a centre with no supervision, to which circumstances the Government apparently have no answer. Since 1998, 15 children have been killed as a result of contact arrangements. That is quantifiable; it is a fact. A survey in 1999 found that 76 per cent. of children ordered by the courts to have contact with abusive or violent parents suffered in a variety of ways, ranging from physical and sexual abuse to neglect. Research undertaken by Christine Harrison of Warwick university shows that too often the views of the child who does not want to have contact with the violent or abusive parent are simply overridden. What assurance can the Minister for Children give that the wishes of the child in these contact arrangements will be given greater priority?
The Minister for Children (Margaret Hodge) : My hon. Friend tried to give some assurance. The hon. Lady
was correct to say that we need to increase the number of supervised contact centres. That is an urgent issue that we hope to address in the context of how we look at, and take forward, the work that has been done by Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Services. We are already investing additional moneys; £2.5 million has gone in from the children's fund specifically to increase the number of supervised contact centres.One of the advantages of the new organisation for which I now have responsibility is that we can start considering whether we can develop contact centres, for instance in some of the sure start centres and in other facilities that we provide for children, young people and families. [Interruption.] Indeed, if the hon. Lady will listen, I can tell her that I was at a meeting this morning at which we discussed what opportunity there would be in the new environment to get a coherence of services.
The hon. Lady raises an issue of huge importance and I draw her attention to the amendment in the Adoption and Children Act 2002. When consideration was taken of care and supervision orders, after the definition of "harm" in subsection (9) we inserted additional wording to include, for example, impairment suffered from seeing or hearing the ill treatment of another. We now need to put in place the regulations to support that amendment to ensure that we act appropriately in circumstances of domestic violence.
Existing legislation should ensure that those taking decisions on behalf of children listen to the children's voice. I take very seriously the concern expressed by the hon. Lady that that is not sufficiently taken into account and I will take it on board in the work that I do in future.
Mrs. Lorna Fitzsimons (Rochdale): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I apologise to you for missing a previous opportunity to speak by a smidgeon as I made the mistake of going in to the Public Gallery rather than the Members' Entrance. I am grateful to you for giving me a second opportunity to speak.
Following the vexed issue of contact orders in the review, is the Department prepared to countenance that the presumption should be changed? Currently, the presumption is that it is in the children's best interests to have contact. However, I contend that it is not and the deaths of children and mothers also suggest that it is not. First, are the Government prepared to change that presumption in law? Secondly, while the review is being carried out, could the guidance ensure that if it cannot be guaranteed that there will be supervised, safe contact, the presumption should be that there is no contact?
Mr. Lammy : My hon. Friend will know that debate on this issue is taking place not just in the United Kingdom, but in other parts of the world. In New Zealand, for example, the authorities make the presumption that my hon. Friend desires. However, the Children Act 1989 is the law in the UK and is based on the best interests of the child. The groups operating in this area take different sides in the debate, some wanting the presumption to be that there is no contact, and others wanting to ensure that there is contact. We will continue to listen to those points of view, but the evidence suggests that, wherever possible, contact with both parents is important and necessary, and supports
the emotional development of the child. I accept that it is a difficult area, but that is the Government's current position on the matter.
Sandra Gidley (Romsey): I have to take issue with the Minister about his earlier reply. He claimed that the Government guidelines that were introduced in April 2001 were having an effect, but they are not. In 2001 only 713 contact orders were refused, and that number had decreased to 518 in 2002. I am therefore not sure where and in what way the guidelines are having an effect, and I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify that. In a wider context, the Association of Chief Officers of Probation estimated that domestic violence is involved in 16,000 cases annually in which a court welfare report is ordered. Do the Government therefore believe it to be right that contact is refused in only 518 of those cases?
Mr. Lammy : As I said, it is right that we act on the basis of the evidence put forward. The hon. Lady makes a relevant point. We will examine the matter and consider the analysis to see how we are progressing. It is also right that we invest extra funds in contact centres and work with the national association to ensure that standards and provision are improved, and that we can look forward to a better future.
The hon. Lady will also know that the development of contact centres occurred in the 1980s. We only reached a significant point in 1988, when the association was set up. She is right to say that the issue is urgent. The Government take it seriously: I hope that those extra funds are beginning to have an effect, and I accept the hon. Lady's point about considering the guidance quickly.
Margaret Hodge : I simply wish to add that all hon. Members recognise how difficult those judgments are for those who have to make them. On the one hand there are all the negative aspects arising from children having witnessed abuse or having been victims of abuse by the parent seeking contact, but on the other hand we know that maintaining contact with both parents is an important way of providing the best opportunity for a child to grow up healthy and well. Those two aspects must be balanced, and the answer must be in constant updating of the training of those who have to take those difficult decisions and, as the hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) said, in emphasising the voice of the child in informing the decisions. I hope that no one goes away from this afternoon's discussions believing that these issues are simple and easy to resolve.
Police Powers
10. Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore): What steps the Government are taking to give the police new powers to tackle domestic violence and bring more offenders to justice; and if the Government will make a statement. [125474]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Yvette Cooper) : The "Safety and Justice" consultation paper includes proposals to
make common assault an arrestable offence, to criminalise the breach of civil orders and to extend the availability of restraining orders.
Huw Irranca-Davies : I thank the Minister for that response and welcome the extension of police powers. Tough measures are essential in this area and I believe that we will all welcome that extension.
Will the Minister and the Minister for Children recognise that using tough measures alone is like using a one-pronged fork—not highly effective? We need to add other forms of attack, one of which should be raising awareness among children, schoolteachers and parents. Will the Minister and her ministerial colleagues ensure that, in the same way that police powers have been extended, we also make available effective resources for groups such as the Bridgend domestic abuse forum and others throughout the country that do such good work in this area?
Yvette Cooper : My hon. Friend is right. Clearly, the issue is not simply one of addressing and providing justice when domestic violence arises. It must also be a case of preventing domestic violence in the first place. That is why the consultation paper is divided into proposals, first, on improving prevention and, as my hon. Friend suggested, education; secondly, on greater protection and justice for victims of domestic violence; and thirdly, on support so that people can rebuild their lives.
My hon. Friend is right to say that the proposals need to be balanced. That balance is why the proposals in the consultation paper have been so widely welcomed by those working in domestic violence throughout the country. I pay tribute to the work of my right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General in that regard.
Murder (Domestic Disputes)
11. Mr. David Rendel (Newbury): What proportion of the victims of murder were killed as a result of domestic disputes involving their spouse or partner in each of the last five years. [125475]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs (Mr. David Lammy) : Homicide figures for all victims where the principal suspect was a partner or an ex-partner were: in 1997–98, 21 per cent.; 1998–99, 16 per cent.; 1999–2000, 16 per cent.; 2000–01, 16 per cent.; and, 2001–02, 18 per cent.
Mr. Rendel : In view of the number of murders that are committed by one partner against another, does the Minister agree that it is tremendously important to maintain secrecy about the new details and, in particular, the new address of any family fleeing from violence? Will he make representations to the Lord Chancellor's Department following the case of one of my constituents who was involved in domestic violence? She wrote to me about the court case and said that the medical report compiled by the consultant paediatrician contained all their new details and secret address and was forwarded to her former husband. Does the
Minister agree that that is outrageous and that it would be a good idea to make representations to the Lord Chancellor to ensure that it does not happen again?
Mr. Lammy : I certainly undertake, through the Lord Chancellor, to look into that case. General lessons may well be drawn from what happened.
Mr. John Randall (Uxbridge): Has any assessment been made of the percentage of cases of murder as a result of domestic violence that involve asylum seekers? Many asylum seekers suffer stress because of their situation and the trauma that they may have gone through. Has any assessment been made of the effect that that might have?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Paul Goggins) : I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a precise answer, but I will find out and ensure that he is informed. I can tell the House that another proposal in "Safety and Justice" is for multi-agency reviews whenever there is a homicide resulting from domestic violence so that all agencies operating at local level—the police, local authorities and so on—can learn lessons from that horrendous event to ensure that as far as possible action is taken to prevent such events happening again.
Mr. Lammy : In the last five years for which figures are available, 499 suspects were indicted for killing their partner or ex-partner, of which 443—89 per cent.—were convicted of homicide.
Linda Gilroy (Plymouth, Sutton): Will one of the ministerial team comment on the role of male perpetrator programmes in getting to the root of the problem?
Paul Goggins : I do not know whether I am the most qualified to answer that question. We are analysing a number of programmes operating in, for example, north America. If we find that they are successful, we will implement them. We think that it is possible to run some of those programmes and for them to have a positive impact. Where possible, we will of course try to implement that approach.
Mrs. Caroline Spelman (Meriden): We do not have to look so far afield for help with those perpetrator programmes. I commend to the Minister a project by Probation West Midlands, which recognises the fundamental injustice in domestic violence. So often, it is the victim who must move out of the family home, with the loss of the security and assets that go with it, while the perpetrator can remain there. Recognising that fundamental injustice, Probation West Midlands has made provision in its probation hostels to remove the perpetrator and to start on the probation
programme. Is that not something that, without having to cross the Atlantic, we might investigate in a little more depth and roll out with more effect?
Paul Goggins : I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her advice and I will certainly find out more about that scheme and other programmes. The point that she makes about the victim being forced to move out is important. It is one area, which again concerns safety and justice, on which we are consulting. Wherever possible the victim should remain at home within familiar surroundings and the perpetrator should be removed.
With reference to a previous answer, we want to ensure that, where people are identified as perpetrators, we have a pro-arrest approach. We are ensuring that common assault is an arrestable offence, so that perpetrators are arrested and removed and victims can remain in safety in their homes.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. We are still at an experimental stage with cross-cutting questions and not everyone has settled down and got it right, whether they are Back Benchers putting questions or officials advising Ministers on answers. It is a matter of finding the subjects that lend themselves most to these debates and then all Members will understand the type of question intended to cut across from one Department to another.
As I have said before, I hope that hon. Members will write to me with their comments on the debates. We have had five altogether, on different subjects, and we must consider what are the best subjects and put them on a regular rotational basis so that the debates work more smoothly. I have tried to bring in more informality, with follow-up questions from both sides, but within the scope of an hour that is often difficult to do. We were assisted today by pure chance, as some of the questions were withdrawn at the last minute. I thank everyone for entering in the spirit of the debate. It has been a useful innovation and we can hone it and make it an effective procedure.
Mr. John Randall (Uxbridge): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you have just answered most of the questions that I intended to ask, but bearing in mind that the recess is coming up I am keen to learn about cross-cutting questions. Can you point out where I can find the information in writing, so that I can mug up on them during the recess and we can finally hone the debates? Or do we have a situation rather like those adverts on TV, where cross-cutting questions build week by week into exciting new parliamentary procedure?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Modesty forbids, but I made a lengthy statement at the beginning of the first debate, so the hon. Gentleman may find it useful to consult Hansard to see what I said.
3.28 pm
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