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Points of Order

3.30 pm

Mr. Michael Ancram (Devizes): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am confident that it will not have escaped your notice that yesterday's edition of The Mail on Sunday set out in terms a personal minute from the Foreign Secretary, dated 17 March this year, to the Prime Minister, in which he urged the Prime Minister to stop short of military engagement in the Iraq war. As you will be aware, the very next day, on 18 March, at column 901 of the Official Report, the Foreign Secretary told the House on a Government motion authorising United Kingdom military engagement in Iraq:

"I am as certain as I can that the Government's course of action is right."—[Official Report, 18 March 2003; Vol. 401, c. 901.]

Given the apparent irreconcilable contradiction between the Foreign Secretary's personal minute and his statement to this House, has he requested to come to the House to make a personal statement to explain why he expressed one view on this major issue to the Prime Minister on one day and a totally opposite view to the House on the next day, and to clear up which of them accurately reflected his view?

Mr. Speaker: It is for any Minister to decide when he or she wishes to make a statement. It is not a matter for me to be drawn into at this stage.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow): Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. On a House of Commons point, when such grave charges as these are laid, do not Ministers owe it to the House to say one thing or the other, whether it is true or false, because it is deeply unsatisfactory that such grave charges should be left in limbo?

Mr. Speaker: I have already said to the right hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) that this is not a matter for the Chair.

Mr. Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield): Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker—

Mr. Speaker: I have said to two Members that this is not a point of order, but I will listen to the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Andrew Mitchell: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Can you confirm that although the information that my right hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram) has just used came to us from only one source, that would not have been a bar from the Government making a statement?

Mr. Speaker: As I said, I will not be drawn into this matter.

15 Sept 2003 : Column 592

Programme Motions

WATER BILL [LORDS] (PROGRAMME) (NO. 2)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Orders (28 June 2001 and 29 October 2002).

That the programme order of 8th September 2003 in relation to the Water Bill [Lords] be amended by the substitution in paragraph (2) (time for conclusion of proceedings in Standing Committee) for the words 'Tuesday 21st October' of the words 'Thursday 23rd October'.—[Mr. Ainger.]

The House divided: Ayes 240, Noes 98.

Division No. 308 [3:32 pm

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Allan, Richard
Allen, Graham
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, John
Baird, Vera
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barron, rh Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Bell, Stuart
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Blunkett, rh David
Borrow, David
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Breed, Colin
Brennan, Kevin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Bruce, Malcolm
Bryant, Chris
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Burstow, Paul
Byers, rh Stephen
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Caborn, rh Richard
Cairns, David
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, rh Menzies (NE Fife)
Caplin, Ivor
Carmichael, Alistair
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Cohen, Harry
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom (Tooting)
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Dalyell, Tam
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dean, Mrs Janet
Denham, rh John
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Doran, Frank
Drew, David (Stroud)
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Etherington, Bill
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul (Newport W)
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Hancock, Mike
Hanson, David
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Heath, David
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Heyes, David
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hodge, Margaret
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, rh Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, David
Lazarowicz, Mark
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Love, Andrew
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFall, John
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McNulty, Tony
McWalter, Tony
Mahmood, Khalid
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Meacher, rh Michael
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Moran, Margaret
Morley, Elliot
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
Organ, Diana
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Perham, Linda
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pound, Stephen
Prosser, Gwyn
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Rendel, David
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Sanders, Adrian
Savidge, Malcolm
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Soley, Clive
Spellar, rh John
Squire, Rachel
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Stringer, Graham
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Robert N.
Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
Watts, David
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Willis, Phil
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woodward, Shaun
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wyatt, Derek

Tellers for the Ayes:

Vernon Coaker and
Ms Bridget Prentice

NOES

Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Ancram, rh Michael
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bacon, Richard
Baldry, Tony
Baron, John (Billericay)
Bellingham, Henry
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, Crispin
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Cameron, David
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Collins, Tim
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Curry, rh David
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Evans, Nigel
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Fox, Dr. Liam
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Garnier, Edward
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Greenway, John
Hague, rh William
Hammond, Philip
Hawkins, Nick
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Horam, John (Orpington)
Jack, rh Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
Mercer, Patrick
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Moss, Malcolm
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Pickles, Eric
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Redwood, rh John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rosindell, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Simmonds, Mark
Soames, Nicholas
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Steen, Anthony
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Walter, Robert
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Whittingdale, John
Wiggin, Bill
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Wishart, Pete
Young, rh Sir George

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Mark Francois and
Mr. John Randall

Question accordingly agreed to.

15 Sept 2003 : Column 594

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL (PROGRAMME) (NO. 4)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Orders (28 June 2001 and 29 October 2002).

That the following provisions shall apply to the Local Government Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Orders of 7th January 2003, 28th January 2003 and 25th February 2003:


Consideration of Lords Amendments


1. Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption at this day's sitting.


2. Those proceedings shall be taken in the order shown in the first column of the following Table, and each part of those proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the time shown in the second column.

15 Sept 2003 : Column 595

TABLE

Lords amendments	Time for conclusion of proceedings
Nos. 3, 6, 19 and 20	2½ hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order
Nos. 1 and 2, 4 and 5, 7 to 18 and 21 to 56	The moment of interruption

Subsequent stages


3. Any further Message from the Lords may be considered forthwith without any Question put.


4. The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement.—[Mr. Raynsford.]

The House divided: Ayes 237, Noes 140.

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