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Mr. Leslie: What interesting mathematics the hon. Gentleman proposes. He says that, supposedly, there is consensus in this Chamber for an elected second Chamber. I do not know which version of Hansard he has been reading, but my tally of the votes suggests that only 272 hon. Members were in favour while 289 were against, which means that the House rejected the option of an elected second Chamber. It is clear that there was no consensus in this House on the way forward.
In the face of Parliament's decisions, what should the Government do? We need to make progress where we can. For the Liberal Democrats, of all parties, to find themselves in the ridiculous situation of supporting the retention of hereditary peers in the second Chamber is an outrage. I do not understand how they can call themselves Liberal Democrats. We need to abolish the remaining hereditary peers. That is what most ordinary people would demand.
It is important to underline the fact that the Government are taking steps to fulfil our manifesto commitments. We want a more legitimate and representative second Chamber. We need to move forward where we can. We are also proposing a statutory appointments commission. Those are steps
forward. Of course, the door remains open for further reform, but we need to take opportunities, while we can, to remove undesirable elements of the status quo.
Mr. Robin Cook (Livingston): My hon. Friend is a fair-minded man, so he will confirm that all the Government's previous proposals for reform of the Lords involved the abolition of hereditary peers. He will also admit that what distinguishes the package that he has just announced is that it is the first time that the Government have presented proposals for reform that do not include provision for any Member of the second Chamber to be elected by the British public.
May I warn my hon. Friend against the delusion that an independent commission will make appointments popular? During the two years when I was Leader of the House, we begged the Appointments Commission not to come up with any more names because when it did there was a public relations disaster. Does he understand that the reason for that unpopularity is that the British people find it offensive that they have no say on who sits in a Chamber that is passing laws on them?
On my hon. Friend's arithmetic, as he is a fair-minded man, will he also accept that the proposal for an all-appointed House got 235 votes and was rejected by 323 votes? That was a somewhat larger majority than I heard him mention a minute ago. Is not it the case that the all-appointed option received the fewest votes in the House and had the biggest majority against it? I confess that I am rather confused, so can my hon. Friend remind me why we consulted the House of Commons if we intended to go ahead with the measure that was least popular among Members of Parliament?
Mr. Leslie: My right hon. Friend was intimately involved in the decisions leading up to the votes last February. Although, as he is aware, no consensus emerged for an all-appointed second Chamber, an all-elected second Chamber or, indeed, any element of election in the second Chamber, it is clear that we must have regard to where we are now and what we can do next. We could leave the hereditaries in the second Chamber in perpetuity or we can take steps to remove that anomaly—that anachronism—and I believe that that is the right thing to do.
My right hon. Friend is correct to suggest that, at present, we do not propose to make changes in composition. The Government are not saying that this is the final stage of reform, but we must be conscious of the fact that progress has to be made and that is what we want to do. Appointments will need to be a feature for the time being, so the statutory appointments commission is a step towards greater legitimacy for those who sit in the second Chamber. That proposal was in our manifesto and my right hon. Friend was involved in its authorship.
Mr. William Hague (Richmond, Yorks): I accept that there was no consensus on Lords reform in this Chamber in February, but was that not largely due to the decision of the Prime Minister and some members of the Cabinet to abrogate all their previous commitments for a more democratic upper House? Has not that long-standing Labour commitment formally come to an end
today? That commitment had lived on—there was even a commitment to the Wakeham report in the last Labour manifesto—but has not it come to a formal end with the words of the Leader of the House a few days ago that there would be a democratic method of appointment? Will the Minister tell his right hon. Friend that we have a word in the English language for "democratic method of appointment"? It is "elections". In the absence of elections to the upper House, will not we be left with a weaker upper Chamber in a weaker Parliament? In those circumstances, is not it ludicrous to speak of an overall reduction in the influence of the Prime Minister of the day?
Mr. Leslie: The right hon. Gentleman seeks to imply that the result of the vote in February was all the Prime Minister's doing. However, as he knows, there was a free vote. He suggests that we should have an all-elected or partially elected second Chamber. In that case, why did the Conservatives in the other House vote by an overwhelming majority for a fully appointed second Chamber? How does he propose to reach a consensus, to find a result, when members of his party in the other House are voting for appointment? We must have regard to the outcome of those votes and ensure that we can take steps forward. For the Conservatives to suggest that they want an elected element when their colleagues in the other place would prevent that very thing is to look in both directions.
Tony Wright (Cannock Chase): Is what my hon. Friend now proposes intended as an interim proposal? If so, how long will the interim period be? If it is only an interim proposal, what steps is he taking to put in hand the further reforms that he refers to and what machinery does he intend to invent for that purpose? May I ask him about a specific point? Almost everyone who has commented on Lords reform, from the royal commission onwards, has said that, even if we are just doing some tidying up, one thing that we need to do is to break the link between service in a second legislative chamber and the honours system. Will the proposals that he now offers us break that link?
Mr. Leslie: On the last point that my hon. Friend makes, the consultation document raises the issue of the link between the peerage and membership of the second Chamber, and we feel that that issue would perhaps merit investigation, but not until we find a consensus about composition. Indeed, that is precisely the point of his first question. We feel that it will eventually be possible to find some way through on the question of composition. We cannot say how long that will take, not least because of the muddled results that we had when Parliament voted on this issue. We want to create a stable second Chamber for the time being and to discuss with the Joint Committee the next steps that might lie ahead, and I look forward to those discussions.
Sir George Young (North-West Hampshire): Can the Minister confirm whether a direct consequence of the Bill that he has proposed today is that the Government will find it easier to get contentious legislation through the second Chamber? If that is the case, how could he tell the House in his statement that the proposals will contribute to the further strengthening of Parliament?
Mr. Leslie: The right hon. Gentleman was a Secretary of State in an Administration who had an overall majority in both Houses of Parliament for 18 years, so for the consultation document to say that we no longer feel that it is right for any Government to have an overall majority in the second Chamber is the right way forward. We feel that that is the best way to progress, to ensure that we have balance and a fair system in the second Chamber. This is certainly nothing about ensuring that we have our business pushed through in any different way. The right hon. Gentleman should realise that, if that were the case, we would copy the previous Conservative Administration, but we reject the approach that they enjoyed for such a long time.
Mr. Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton): As someone who served on the royal commission for a year, may I congratulate my hon. Friend on a statement that fulfils the Labour party manifesto commitment on the Wakeham report? What my hon. Friend has announced is fulfilment of the spirit and a large part of the letter of the report—namely, the establishment of a statutory appointments commission that is required to take account of the votes cast at the previous general election and the removal of patronage from the Prime Minister, plus the abolition of the 92 hereditaries. It is an extremely sensible statement; the Government deserve credit for it; and it is not in the least surprising that, when the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) was rejected at the last election, the Government's commitment in beating him is now being carried out.
Mr. Leslie: May I take this opportunity to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend and, indeed, Opposition Members for their role on the royal commission? He is right to say that we are taking steps to implement our manifesto commitments. Of course, it is a shame that we could not reach consensus in the House of Commons on the question of composition, but it is right to remove the hereditaries from the second Chamber and to establish a statutory appointments commission. How interesting it is to hear the disappointing response from Opposition Members, who will apparently oppose removing the hereditary principle from the second Chamber.
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