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Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed): Why does not the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs understand that constitutions—even our unwritten one—have checks and balances, and that, when they are changed, the checks and balances have to be either maintained or replaced? He has already ignored the views of the judges that his proposals provide no means at Cabinet level to assert judicial independence. He now proposes to ignore the views of all the people in the country who have seen the Lords act as a check on an over-powerful Government and do not want the House of Lords to be changed, unless it is changed in a way that maintains that authority and that ability to challenge the Government.
Mr. Leslie: I do not quite know which document the right hon. Gentleman has been reading. The Government wish to see not only a second Chamber with no overall Government majority, but an appointments commission that will determine the
timing and number of those appointed in that manner. The document also spells out the fact that the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs should have a role in protecting judicial independence. It is not true that the Government somehow want to blur the lines between the different branches of the constitution. Quite the contrary— we seek the proper separation of powers between the judiciary, the Executive and the legislature.
Mr. Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough): May I direct the House's attention to the constitutional reform document in relation to the office of the Lord Chancellor, and say, as Second Church Estates Commissioner, that the Church welcomes the consultation document in relation to ecclesiastical appointments, parochial appointments, the Royal Peculiars and other ecclesiastical functions? The Church welcomes the proposals in relation to a disengagement of the Church from the state, rather than disestablishment, but may I ask the Minister to confirm that what we seek in relation to Church appointments is to give back to the Church what rightly belongs to it and to maintain for the state that which it is appropriate for the state to maintain?
Mr. Leslie: My hon. Friend is right to suggest that the consultation document on the office of the Lord Chancellor contains no proposals on disestablishment, but there are interesting tracts on ecclesiastical patronage, visitatorial rights, the Royal Peculiars and the chapels royal, which I know all hon. Members will want to look at in much more detail. There are questions about whether Ministers or perhaps the Church of England would be best placed to undertake some of those functions, and we will not allow some of those details to go without proper scrutiny and proper attention.
Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough): May I gently remind the hon. Gentleman that, contrary to what he said at the outset of his answers, there is not a Conservative majority in the other place? Will he tell us what he proposes to do beyond reciting the apology that he gave at the beginning of his statement? Does he intend to look into how that statement came to be published in the newspapers some days ago? Has he considered whether the element of retrospection is complicit with the European Convention? How will the proposals improve Parliament's ability to hold the Executive to account?
Mr. Leslie: I do not know where the hon. and learned Gentleman's arithmetic comes from. If he looks back at the numbers in the different parties, he will see that the Conservative party is by far the most overwhelming party in the second Chamber.
As for the question about the reports in Sunday newspapers, as I said in my statement, they were certainly not authorised and we are investigating that matter. However, as with many issues, particularly those that are as large as this, it is not surprising that things leak out, but I deplore such leaks and I certainly hope that we can continue to make statements to Parliament first.
It is right that we have the proper separation of powers and proper scrutiny of legislation, and I believe that the proposed measures will aid that in many different ways.
Joyce Quin (Gateshead, East and Washington, West): May I urge my hon. Friend to open wider the door to further reform, given not only that an all-appointed House was the least popular option in this House, but that the results of the earlier consultation showed strong public support for a greater elected element? May I also ask my hon. Friend, given the divisions on this issue that undoubtedly exist across the House, whether there will be a free vote?
Mr. Leslie: We do not intend to introduce legislation that includes matters on composition precisely because we had the free votes that took place last February, when no consensus emerged. We had two choices to make: to do nothing and continue with the status quo, or to take steps to continue to make progress on reform, to remove the hereditaries and to introduce a statutory appointments commission. That is indeed what the legislation will propose.
Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire): Does the Minister accept that documents that suggest that the Anglican Church existed before the Reformation hardly fill one with confidence about the accuracy of their contents? Can he name any second Chamber anywhere in the world that has more accumulated expertise, experience or ability to hold the Government to account than the House of Lords? As he said that the new House of Lords will be significantly different, how can it be significantly better?
Mr. Leslie: It can be significantly better if 92 of its Members are not there by virtue of their birthright. The hon. Gentleman seems to suggest that if we remove those people who were there by virtue of that automatic ticket of inheritance, we somehow reduce the expertise or independence of mind of the second Chamber. He is mistaken in that. I believe that we can have a contemporary chamber that is legitimate and that can be more representative. If he scrutinises the proposals in the document with more care, perhaps he will find himself agreeing with it.
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield): My hon. Friend the Minister said that the Government intend to create a stable and sustainable upper House. By that, I take it that they intend to make stable and sustainable an all-appointed House, which, as has already been observed, was the least popular option. I stood on a manifesto that called for the upper House not only to be more representative but more democratic. I for one do not approach manifestos on a pick-and-mix basis. Will he therefore tell me what opportunity I will have, as a Labour Member of Parliament, to vote for a more democratic upper House if I am to be denied the chance this time to vote for any form of election?
Mr. Leslie: My hon. Friend must realise that the votes that took place last February changed the landscape
significantly in a number of different ways. I believe that it is still possible, however, to move towards greater legitimacy for the second Chamber. The abolition of the hereditaries, an independent statutory appointments commission and making sure that those appointments reflect the shares of the votes cast of the previous general election, are a step towards a more democratic second Chamber. We do not close the door to future considerations on composition. It is just the next stage, not the final stage, but we must make progress while we can. I hope that my hon. Friend will recognise that we live in the real world and that we must be pragmatic about the progress that we can make, particularly given the lack of consensus that emerged in those February votes.
Mr. James Arbuthnot (North-East Hampshire): Does the Minister accept that this document does nothing to make the House of Lords more democratic?
Mr. Leslie: As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden), I believe that there are a number of ways in which greater legitimacy can be achieved for the second Chamber if we evolve from a hereditary to a more contemporary chamber. That is a step towards a more democratic House of Lords. If we remove hereditaries, we create a more legitimate Chamber. If the statutory appointments commission can reflect the shares of the votes cast or seats won at the previous general election, that, too, is a step towards a more democratic second Chamber. I accept, however, that hon. Members will have different views about it. It is precisely because there was no resolution in the votes in the House of Commons on this matter that we are where we are. I therefore believe that we must make those steps forward where we can.
Mr. Win Griffiths (Bridgend): Can my hon. Friend explain why he thinks that he can make progress with the proposals put to us today for the reform of the House of Lords when his proposal is the one that was most heavily defeated in this House?
Mr. Leslie: I hope that I have been clear in expressing the Government's views on future considerations on composition. We do not close the door to future decisions on how the Second Chamber should be composed. Indeed, we will discuss with the Joint Committee whether we can find a consensus and perhaps move forward. However, it was evident back in February, as all hon. Members will recall, that there was no consensus, and we hear arguments on both sides. Are we to do nothing, or are we to remove the hereditary peers and create a statutory appointments commission while we can, and try to reach a final stage at a later date?
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