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Mr. Heath: If my hon. Friend looks at the Bill, he will see that there is—through the data protection commissioner.
Caroline Flint: It is the right of any individual who has incorrect information about them placed on the SIS to apply for it to be removed or corrected.
Mr. Heath: I thank the Minister for confirming my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith).
Can the hon. Lady help me with what may be merely a printing matter? The new clause is set out in slightly odd way. I believe that the words
- "(licensing of drivers of vehicles)"
On amendment No. 33, the hon. Member for South-East Cambridgeshire and I tried desperately to get this point across in Committee. On re-reading my contribution to that debate, I think that it was even more confusing than the Minister's, so I shall not repeat what I said on that occasion. However, the hon. Member for South-East Cambridgeshire is on to a good point; surely, if we want disqualifications to be transportable across national borders within the EU, it makes sense that, wherever the individual against whom a disqualification applies is resident, the clock, in terms of natural justice, should still be ticking. It does not make sense for a person to move from one country to another and, at that point, for the term of disqualification to be put on hold—pending—until that person either returns to their country of origin or, curiously, moves to the UK, where the clock would start ticking again. That cannot be the Government's intention, so someone, somewhere, is being obtuse. As many people seem to agree with the hon. Member for South-East Cambridgeshire, while few people agree with the Minister, we may be right.
Our debates have displayed, almost throughout, the desire of the Opposition parties to improve the Bill and to make it work as the Government intend. I hope that
we shall not engage in a dialogue of the deaf and that the Minister will accept the fact that we are trying to improve her Bill and to make it workable both practically and in terms of natural justice for those who are affected by it. Simply repeating that the Government disagree is not sufficient to answer the argument. The hon. Member for South-East Cambridgeshire has a good point and it would as well if the Government listened to it.
Caroline Flint: To emphasise a point that I made earlier in relation to new clause 1, I wish to say that there have been a series of House of Lords inquiries into the UK's participation in the Schengen arrangements, and the decision to participate was subject to parliamentary scrutiny. The Bill has provided a further chance to discuss the UK's participation in the Schengen arrangements. So there has been full discussion of the Bill's key provisions, including issues such as cross-border surveillance, which we will come to again later.
I have been asked about those who are disqualified in the UK from driving who are then resident in another country. Let us say, for example, that they have British driving licences and that they are disqualified, but that they are living in France, the parameter for which is that they do so for at least 185 days in each calendar year. I understand that, in those circumstances, the clock would be ticking and the disqualification would obviously apply when they are living in France as well.
We are trying to ensure that such things are understood not only where licences are issued and therefore where disqualification comes about, but where, given the days we live in, people reside in another EU country. If someone were temporarily moving around the EU, the disqualification would not apply in the same respect. If someone's UK driving licence is revoked, that will also apply in the country where they are resident. That should prevent them from driving anywhere. Certain procedures have to be gone through to get a licence in another country, and I imagine that that would be quite difficult to achieve. The disqualification will continue to run in the UK if the offender leaves the country to live in another member state. For these purposes, the offender must be resident abroad for at least 185 days in each calendar year.
Mr. Paice: I appreciate that the Minister is trying to clarify these provisions, but let me pose an example. I appreciate that, if we go too far into examples, we get to specifics, so I shall stick to the example I used in my earlier remarks. Let us suppose that a British citizen commits an offence in Germany and is disqualified from driving by a German court, that he or she then moves to France to live for 180 days—six months—and then returns to Britain. The Minister seems to suggest that that person can drive in France, but that the disqualification, which started in Germany, will be in a state of hiatus until the offender returns to the UK, when the disqualification will be completed. Is my understanding right? I should not refer to this, but I am getting indications that I am right. If that is the case, is it not unjust that that person can continue to drive in France—it could be any other European country—with a hiatus in the period of disqualification, which then resumes when he or she returns to the UK?
Caroline Flint: If people are disqualified from driving and they have a UK licence, it will be revoked. Yes,
someone can continue to drive before a foreign disqualification is recognised in the UK, as the disqualification only takes effect 21 days after the DVLA sends its notice of disqualification to the driver concerned. If UK citizens are disqualified in the UK and they move to France and then back to the UK, they are still disqualified in those circumstances.
Mr. Paice: With respect to the Minister, I am talking not about someone who has been disqualified in this country—the law seems clear about that—but about those who are disqualified for having committed an offence elsewhere. What will happen if they live elsewhere before returning to this country?
Caroline Flint: My understanding is that if UK citizens are disqualified for offences in Germany, that is notified to the DVLA in this country and their licences are revoked. They are therefore disqualified from using those UK licences in France, as well as if they return to the UK—after all, they were UK licences to start with.
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Information in relation to drivers' licences is only provided, as for the Schengen convention, for limited purposes. It will only be the information that is on the driving licence. As I said previously, protection exists both in terms of our data commissioner and for individuals if they want to correct information that is there.
Dr. Julian Lewis: Will the Minister give way?
Caroline Flint: If I may, I shall continue for a moment.
In relation to the point raised about Northern Ireland legislation, separate Northern Ireland legislation exists for holding driving licences, and it must therefore be covered in this new clause.
Mr. Heath: I was not querying for one moment the inclusion of Northern Ireland. I was simply dealing with the printed word in front of us, and given that this is the Report stage, it is the last opportunity to correct it if it is typographically challenged. Will the Minister confirm my view that the words
- "(licensing of drivers of vehicles)"
- "licensing of drivers of vehicles)"
Caroline Flint: My understanding is that the new clause is sufficient as it stands, and we do not see any reason to change it for the purposes of our debate this afternoon.
To return to the scenario in which the Germans regard an offender as normally resident in the UK, they will notify the UK authorities, who will enforce the
disqualification. If the offender is normally resident in France, the French, not the UK, will enforce the disqualification. If a UK driver is disqualified in Germany and the driver stops off in France, he is not disqualified until the UK legislation bites. The convention does not allow Germany to notify France or France to disqualify the driver. What we are trying to introduce is a system that is understood both in the member state where a disqualification occurs and which also applies to countries where the individual is resident. I urge the House to accept the new clause and to resist amendment No. 33 for the reasons outlined.Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
Mr. Heath: I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 2, line 25, after 'privileges', insert 'as a party or'.
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