House of Commons
Wednesday 15 October 2003
The House met at half-past Eleven o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. Speaker in the Chair]
London Local Authorities and Transport for London Bill [Lords]
Read the Third time, and passed, without amendment.
Transas Group Bill
Considered; to be read the Third time.
Oral Answers to Questions
INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT
The Secretary of State was asked—
St. Helena
1. Bob Russell (Colchester): If he will visit the island of St. Helena to discuss the (a) economy and (b) population level. [132038]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Development (Mr. Gareth Thomas): I shall begin, if I may, by taking this opportunity to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development on his well deserved elevation.
I have no immediate plans to visit St. Helena. Since June of this year, however, I have met twice with representatives of the island's Executive and Legislative Councils. I hope to have discussions with other island councillors during the Overseas Territories' Consultative Council meetings in December. St. Helena's economy and its population level are matters of concern, and featured strongly in my discussions with councillors.
Bob Russell : I thank the Minister for that answer and I join him in congratulating the Secretary of State on his elevation to the Cabinet. He is respected on both sides of the Chamber and is a Minister who can be trusted—perhaps a rare commodity in this Government. Will the Minister think again about visiting St. Helena? No Minister of any Government has ever visited the island, which is a cause for great regret. The economy of the island is falling and the population has decreased by about a quarter in 18 months. Action is needed.
Mr. Thomas: I recognise the hon. Gentleman's long-standing interest in the economy and population levels of St. Helena. As he will know, one of the proposals that
we are considering to try to tackle some of those issues is air access. As he will know from the written answer that I issued, we have made progress. We have had four expressions of interest in developing air access and in wider economic regeneration initiatives. I would be happy to arrange a further briefing for him on that issue.
Mr. John Smith (Vale of Glamorgan): Should my hon. Friend decide to visit the island, he would discover great concern about future development because of the education of its children. Does he think that it is right and proper that the children of citizens of British overseas territories have to pay the foreign rate of student fees for higher education, but the children of French overseas territories who attend British universities pay the domestic rate? Can he look into that?
Mr. Thomas: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question and I know that he, too, has had a long-standing interest in the affairs of St. Helena. That particular issue has not featured strongly in the discussions that I have had so far with the island councillors. However, following his request, I will look into the issue further and write to him.
Mr. Robert Key (Salisbury): When the Minister visits St. Helena as I hope he will, will he consider carefully the health care system? A review of the system was carried out a few years ago by the Department for International Development, but is he aware of any improvements to health care on the island?
Mr. Thomas: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. Some improvements have been made to elderly care for the people of St. Helena. I do not have the exact details of those improvements, so I will drop him a note to clarify the issue.
India
2. Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon): If he will make a statement on British development programmes in India. [132039]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Development (Mr. Gareth Thomas): In 2002–03, DFID provided £161 million of bilateral development assistance to support Government efforts to deliver pro-poor policies and services in India. We work closely with four state Governments committed to poverty reduction to help accelerate fiscal and public sector reform; increase access to basic health, education, and urban services; and empower the marginalised. We also support the Union Government and civil society in those areas nationwide.
Mr. Dismore: I am sure that I do not need to remind my hon. Friend that one third of the world's poor live in India, where 400 million people try to survive on less than $1 a day. With the incidence of HIV likely to rise to 8 per cent. over the next 10 years, and the prevalence of long-standing diseases such as polio, will my hon. Friend say what the Government are doing to try to support the Indian Government and individual Indian
states in that respect? Will he make particular reference to Gujarat, where so many of my constituents have their roots?
Mr. Thomas: I recognise the importance of Gujarat to my hon. Friend's constituents. Many of my constituents share an interest in, and affinity with, that state, and India more generally. He is right to highlight the rise in HIV/AIDS in India, where some 4.5 million people are, sadly, already infected. The British Government have provided just over £130 million to the Government of India, through their national AIDS control organisation, to help tackle HIV/AIDS. Gujarat is one of the states in which we are working.
Tony Baldry (Banbury): I understand that in 2003-04 the Department will give £233 million to India by way of bilateral development aid. That reflects what the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) rightly said was the great poverty in India. However, the Foreign Secretary is at the same time allowing India to spend £1 billion on purchasing 60 Hawk jets. In effect, therefore, every penny spent by the Government on development aid to India in the lifetime of this Parliament is effectively subsidising and enabling the Indian Government in the purchase of war planes. Am I alone in thinking that that is a somewhat bizarre arrangement?
Mr. Thomas: First, I must correct the hon. Gentleman's figures on this year's likely spend. We estimate that it will be in the order of £200 million. He may know that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has committed the Government to increasing our spend in India to some £300 million. The hon. Gentleman also referred to Hawk trainer jets, which are for training purposes, and not for operational and offensive purposes. The Government of India's defence expenditure is about on a par with what one would expect for an economy of that size. The initiative to which he refers will not have an impact on development programmes in India.
Mr. Piara S. Khabra (Ealing, Southall): Does my hon. Friend the Minister agree that trade and development go together? Will not the absence of any agreement at Cancun affect development work in India? What progress is being made to initiate further negotiations with the parties involved?
Mr. Thomas: My hon. Friend is right about the importance of making progress on trade negotiations. We were disappointed by the lack of further progress at Cancun. We welcome the statement by India's Commerce Minister, Arun Jaitley, that he is keen to get back to negotiations. My hon. Friend will have noted today that the World Trade Organisation has begun to look at how we might make that happen.
Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby): I have just returned from a visit to India, as a guest of the Indian Government. Does the Minister share my concern that the World Bank has just written to the chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh—one of DFID's four chosen states—because of World Bank concerns about the failure to combat corruption? Does he share my surprise that for
the past year the European Commission has occupied the entire fifth floor of the most expensive hotel in New Delhi and used it for offices? Does he think that that is a good way to spend the money of EU and UK taxpayers?
Mr. Thomas: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has visited India. I, too, have just returned from India, where I discussed with the EU Commission our programmes, and the programmes that it has in hand. It is worth noting that the EU programme in India has been audited and given a good bill of health. We have a very constructive dialogue with the EU Commission in respect of its work in India. The hon. Gentleman's criticisms of the EU reflect his party's ongoing hostility to Europe more than real concerns about what the EU is doing in India.
Afghanistan
3. Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North): What assistance his Department has given to re-establish democracy in Afghanistan. [132040]
The Secretary of State for International Development (Hilary Benn): The Department financially supported both the traditional Loya Jirga in June 2002, which elected President Karzai, and the public consultation on the new constitution. We are helping to fund the current electoral registration process. We have also translated into Pashto and Dari the report that we commissioned on the political process in Afghanistan, and which has been distributed through the independent Human Rights Commission.
Mr. Allen : First, may I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his very well deserved promotion? He is proof that merit need not stand in the way of a ministerial career. Does he agree that it is very important, in Afghanistan, that we are seen to be making a democratic infrastructure work? That is especially important, given the possibility that it may be extended into Iraq. We have been involved in Afghanistan for a longer period, and people need to see progress in respect of democracy there if they are to have faith that we can make progress in Iraq. Will he continue to work with President Karzai to ensure that the infrastructure is built in Afghanistan?
Hilary Benn: I thank my hon. Friend for his kind words, which give me the opportunity to express my appreciation to my noble Friend Baroness Amos for the work she did as Secretary of State and to wish her well in her new responsibilities. My hon. Friend is right when he says that we need to stick with the process of building a democracy in Afghanistan. That is why, as a Department, we are giving practical support to the constitutional process and to electoral registration, as I have said. The most important thing is that the people of Afghanistan now have the opportunity for that process to take place because of the action that was taken to remove the Taliban. We need to stick with them as they determine their own future.
Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle): As I may be one of the relatively few Members of this House to have debated with the Secretary of State's grandfather as well as his father, may I too congratulate him on maintaining
his family's ministerial and aristocratic role in the Labour movement? On establishing democracy in Afghanistan, may I urge him to remind his colleagues that other countries often have cultures and traditions that are different from our own and that to try to impose foreign forms of government on them is often counter-productive and futile?
Hilary Benn: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words. I hope that he will find dealing with me a similarly pleasurable experience. The constitutional Loya Jirga process that has been adopted in Afghanistan is taking place precisely because we recognise his point about the need to respect particular traditions and ways of doing things. The Loya Jirga needs to be given the time to draw up the new constitution. Then, the process can take place—hopefully, with elections next year. We need to acknowledge the cultural tradition of countries while upholding the principles of democracy that all hon. Members hold dear.
Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford): May I also congratulate my right hon. Friend on his appointment and ask him to join me in congratulating President Karzai, who has said that, of the 50 delegates that he will appoint to the Loya Jirga, 25 will be women? My right hon. Friend will know that that is what Afghan women, within their traditions, want—they want to participate. Will he discuss with the United Nations Development Fund for Women, UNIFEM, ways in which special help can be given to women to ensure their safe and thorough participation in the Loya Jirga and to prevent the intimidation that happened last time?
Hilary Benn: I am happy to tell my hon. Friend that I will be delighted to discuss that issue with UNIFEM. Indeed, I had a conversation on the subject when I was in New York recently. I very much welcome what President Karzai said about the steps that he will take in appointing women to the Loya Jirga. Of course, under the arrangements that have been put in place, 19 per cent. of the delegates to that body will have to be women. It is also worth reflecting on the fact that one third of teachers working in the schools of Afghanistan are now women and 30 per cent. of the pupils are girls—a situation that did not obtain when the Taliban were in control of that country.
Mrs. Caroline Spelman (Meriden): I, too, congratulate the Secretary of State on his well deserved promotion. It is important, after an absence of five months, to have the Secretary of State in this House again. I am sure that the whole House will agree that giving Afghan women the vote is vital for the future of Afghanistan. Given the problems of electoral registration of women and the likelihood that those in traditional communities may simply vote as their husbands do, will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what measures have been taken to inform and encourage women to participate on an individual and equal basis in next year's elections?
Hilary Benn: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her kind words. She raises an important point about the process of change that is taking place in Afghanistan.
First, as she says, we have to get the electoral registration process to work. It will begin in the cities and then move on to the rural areas, where the job will be more difficult—we need to acknowledge that.Secondly, we are supporting activities of which I am sure that the hon. Lady will be aware, trying to encourage the kind of discussion to which she has just drawn the attention of the House. Thirdly, in the long term, the return of girls to school and the participation of women in civil society is the best contribution that we can make to enabling women to have the place in Afghan society that she and I would like to see.
Mr. Bill Tynan (Hamilton, South): I shall pass on the congratulations as I think enough has been done. My right hon. Friend will be aware of the United Nations Security Council resolution to extend the role of peacemakers in Afghanistan. At present, 16 of the 32 provinces are no-go areas for non-governmental organisations. Will my right hon. Friend indicate what can be done by his Department to extend the role of NGOs in Afghanistan?
Hilary Benn: My hon. Friend draws attention to the key issue in Afghanistan, which is security. The new UN resolution on ISAF—the international security assistance force—which has just been passed, will help. Four of the provincial reconstruction teams, which are a civil-military alliance, have already been deployed, including the UK team in Mazar. We hope that four more teams will be deployed before the end of the year. Training of the Afghan national army is being stepped up, as is training of the police. Those are all steps that we have to take to provide the security in which all the other things that we want to see in Afghanistan can happen.
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