| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
3.50 pm
The Minister for Pensions (Malcolm Wicks): Follow that indeed. I was about to say that we had heard a fine debate with thoughtful speeches, but it went off a bit towards the end. I had not realised that I was following a marcher and a demonstrator. I can imagine the chant, "What do we want? Tory leadership. When do we want it? Now".
The debate has been useful. The Liberal Democrat spokesman, the hon. Member for Northavon (Mr. Webb), made a significant speech that I much enjoyed. I did not agree with all of it but it was an important speech. I heard recently that the Liberal Democrat leader had shuffled away all the lefties. I have never seen
a leftie on the Liberal Democrat Benches, but it is good to see that the hon. Gentleman is still in his place in the senior common room.The hon. Gentleman mentioned the concerns of the shadow Secretary of State about the nation's fertility but I shall not follow him down that path. We do not want the hon. Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) to be referred to as "two brains and three or more babies".
My hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton, South (Mr. Tynan) made an important speech in which he contrasted the mean-minded means-testing of yesteryear, drawing on his family's past and experience, with the approach to pension credit today—[Interruption.] I hope that people will read his speech, including the laughers who were not in the Chamber during the debate, and that, whatever their concerns about income testing, they will at least understand the significant points that he made. It was a moving speech.
The right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley), a former Secretary of State, made an important speech about occupational pensions. He modestly advertised his new Social Market Foundation pamphlet. I already have a copy, but I imagine that others might wait for the January sales to get a better bargain. He presented his proposals with great care and research and I enjoyed his speech.
My hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North (Ms Keeble) talked about policy objectives and the importance of ensuring not only the relief of poverty but also comfort and dignity in old age. I commend her efforts in Northampton in boosting pension credit; such action is important.
The hon. Member for Galloway and Upper Nithsdale (Mr. Duncan) referred to issues in his rural constituency. I should like to talk to him more about that so that we can ensure that our local Pension Service, which is doing a good job across Great Britain, can be of greater significance in his constituency in respect of the location of advice surgeries. I shall be happy to talk to him about that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Lynne Jones) outlined her concerns, which are well known. I appreciate her points although I do not agree with them. She was in some difficulty; I thought that I heard a tremor in her voice when she said that she agreed with the Conservatives' new approach to the earnings link. However, as the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden praised the Australian Labour Government's approach to pensions, it has probably just been one of those interesting afternoons.
The hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams) expressed some concerns about the Pension Service in Wales. I should like to talk to you seriously about those. I think that the service is doing a good job there, but if there are concerns I want to look into them and I should appreciate your advice.
My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Anniesland (John Robertson), among other things, paid tribute to our Pension Service.
Mr. Adrian Flook (Taunton): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Malcolm Wicks: May I make some progress? I will give way if you catch my eye again.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. May I remind the hon. Gentleman that he should be speaking in the third person? I let it go to start with but he seems to have got into a groove.
Malcolm Wicks: I am so carried away by the debate on pensions, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
We have touched on a range of issues about the state's responsibilities for pensions. Of course, those important responsibilities include establishing a reasonable basic pension and related rights; tackling poverty, which I want to come on to; increasing access to second and earnings-related state pensions; promoting confidence and trust in pensions, which has been a theme today; and informing and educating the public, particularly younger people, about pension choices and the importance of pension forecasts.
Finally, the responsibilities include enabling the development of flexible work and retirement patterns so that we can promote work among the over-50s, abolish age discrimination, promote favourable financial arrangements for those who defer the state pension—my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has introduced proposals—and, of course, allow older people to draw their pension and continue employment at the same time.
On the central issue today—pension credit—I urge right hon. and hon. Members to be careful about how we discuss such issues. It is important to have a debate and there are differences between us, but if we use words such as "stigma" in relation to claiming pension credit, I am afraid that we may achieve the result that we all do not want to achieve.
Mr. Flook: In the Minister's tribute to all those who have contributed to the debate—sadly, although I have been sitting here, I was unable to do so—he has still not mentioned the word, "means-testing". Given that mean-testing has increased dramatically under this Government, can he explain how my generation can be encouraged to save for the future?
Malcolm Wicks: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman missed the debate. No doubt he will catch up by reading Hansard. The point that I am trying to make is that, if we talk about stigma, we will put off frail and vulnerable people from applying for their rights to pension credit.
Let me quote from The Times of 10 October. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State quoted the Daily Mail; I want to go up market and quote from The Times, where someone writes:
- "I fail to understand why the current pensions regime should attract so much criticism. As someone who has recently dealt with the pension service on behalf of an elderly relative, I can say that
- the process of applying for pension credit was extremely straightforward, with the form being almost fully completed over the phone."
Malcolm Wicks: No doubt, the hon. Gentleman wants to talk about stigma again.
Mr. Heald: Does the hon. Gentleman think it wrong for the director general of Age Concern, who helps the Minister to run his campaign on take-up, to refer to stigma? The quotation came not from me, but from the director general of Age Concern.
Malcolm Wicks: Yes, I think that the director general is wrong. That is the short answer to that question.
We have had much success on pension credit. All those on the minimum income guarantee have been successfully transferred to pension credit. We have written to 1.6 million households, and 1.1 million households have already gained extra money as a result of pension credit. It is heartening to hear many of the success stories about people ending up with £86 more a week—not only from pension credit, but from other benefits, such as housing benefit—and, in another case, in Essex, with £35 more a week.
The Tory proposal to return to the earnings link is far-fetched, given that a Conservative Government abolished it back in 1980. If this goes on, we will soon see the shadow Home Secretary visit a comprehensive school just to show that he understands such things and, no doubt, he will talk to the lads and lasses about whether they prefer fox hunting or fives as a sport.
Gregory Barker: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Malcolm Wicks: I have not got time.
I am afraid that, if the Conservatives were ever to implement their policies, it would be bad news for women, who should be major gainers, and the very group who would not receive any help would be the very poor. Let me quote what the shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer said on the Dimbleby programme on 5 October. He said:
- "Those who are entitled to the pension credit and do claim . . . will not be better off"
The fact of the matter is that, whatever the Conservative party says today, people contrast the Conservative Government's record, when nothing was done for the poorest, with the policies of this Labour Government who, as well as bolstering the basic state pension, have helped the poorest, with the pension credit, free television licences for the over-75s, the winter fuel payments and re-establishing the eye tests that the Conservatives abolished.
That is our record. We will debate it, put it to the British people, and compare it not with the promises of the shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions but with the record of the previous
Conservative Government. I hope that everyone will go out and argue for the pension credit and ensure that those people in our communities and constituencies who most deserve pension credit receive it. Our take-up target is 100 per cent. We want everyone to get it. There will be those who sneer, but we will do our best to ensure that everyone who deserves pension credit will receive it.Question put, That the original words stand part of the Question:—
The House proceeded to a Division.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |