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Mr. Grieve: The hon. Gentleman is making a most interesting speech. Does he agree that one thing that would be useful in the context of crime against retail business is some figures? It is remarkable that no central statistics on retail crime whatsoever are collated.

Mr. Kilfoyle: That may or may not be so—I do not doubt the hon. Gentleman's word—but my only concern is the constituents whose interests I represent.

In closing, I repeat that I am aware that neighbourhood policing can be very effective in many areas, including on Merseyside, but I can only speak from my own constituency experience and the particular problems in it.

6.7 pm

Mr. Richard Bacon (South Norfolk): I shall try to be brief, as I know that other Members wish to speak. Our motion states that we believe that the Government are seeking to achieve their aims

"through a burdensome and ineffective bureaucracy",

a phrase that the Government amendment seeks to strike out. In listening to this debate, I have been struck by the fact that most contributors, including our own Front Benchers and the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Oaten)—he now speaks on these matters—have made it clear that the situation is burdensome. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman used such phrases several times, yet

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he has been in his job for only 24 hours. I should like to hear the Minister acknowledge that the police still face an excessive burden.

I went out on patrol with the Norfolk constabulary a few months ago, and before doing so I visited the new headquarters, which is in my constituency, and the local Wymondham police station. The officers there showed me all the forms that they have to fill out; indeed, they spread them out over a huge conference table, which the forms more or less covered. [Interruption.] I see that the Minister is writing this down, and I can tell her that the forms were supplied not by Norfolk constabulary but from the centre, and that local officers were forced to comply with them.

If the Minister does not believe that the system is now too burdensome and bureaucratic, perhaps she will take the word of the chief constable of the Norfolk constabulary. His report of 26 August to the Norfolk police authority enumerates the problems that the police have been facing. We are familiar with the problems that many police forces have had to absorb: additional tasks in support of, or compliance with, extra initiatives, legislation and processes, including best value; data collection for performance indicators; efficiency planning; annual reports; performance planning; consultation; activity-based costing; and various legislation, including the Human Rights Act 1998, the working time directive, and legislation on information and security, and on freedom of information. There are also the diversity issues that constabularies now have to contend with, the implementation of the recommendations of the Climbié report, the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, equal opportunities provisions, the implementation of the Police Reform Act 2002, and so on. Those, of course, impose extra burdens as well as extra costs, but there is the additional problem of the funding process itself, which imposes still further costs.

The chief constable of Norfolk expressed in his report to the police authority the constabulary's concern that Government policy

"seems to provide funding more and more by discrete ring-fenced packages rather than through the general formula, often on a bidding basis which is competitive between Forces. This causes a great deal of work on the part of individual Forces, often at short notice and with the prospect that this work may not result in funding being allocated and may therefore be nugatory. Even when bids are successful, a huge bureaucratic process is attached to grant claims, monitoring and reporting expenditure, and auditing, and, typically, the long-term continuation of ring-fenced funding streams is not guaranteed."

I know that the Minister said recently that she would like to see, where possible, a reduction in the amount of ring-fenced grants, and I urge her to take that commitment seriously. Where such funding is necessary, it should be as clearly defined as possible and requirements should be given to constabularies as early as possible.

Even if the Government believe that they are doing their best, I would like them to acknowledge that there is still a long way to go in reducing burdens on the police. I quote again from the chief constable's report, which said that police staff were

"being subjected to an increasing burden of form-filling, paperwork and bureaucracy arising from numerous statutory and other initiatives, target-setting and performance monitoring that is significantly diverting resources from front-line policing."

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He was talking about August this year, and continued:

"We accept that the police service must be fully accountable and open to scrutiny but we feel that the balance has tilted too far in one direction."

I would like the Government to acknowledge that the balance has indeed tilted too far in one direction. Much more radical action is necessary to tilt that balance back in the other direction and I hope that the Minister will confirm that in her response tonight.

6.12 pm

James Purnell (Stalybridge and Hyde): I too shall be brief. I want to draw the Minister's attention to neighbourhood policing in my area, and particularly to two issues on which my local council leader and chief superintendent told me that they would appreciate some help.

In 1997, Tameside had 353 police officers; it now has 432. That contrasts with the reduction in police numbers that took place under the Tories. It is worth saying that their promise of extra police numbers amounts to a cruel deception. The kindest way of describing it is as spin. If they really believe that they can find £1 billion from putting asylum seekers on an island, they have gone into fantasy politics mode. The problems in the asylum system were, of course, caused by Tory cuts in the first place. Solving the problem by magically finding £1 billion is extraordinary. Frankly, I do not believe that they believe it themselves.

I base my politics not on fantasy, but on talking to my constituents. In the past few weeks, I have done roving surgeries, in Godley, Ridgehill and Newton. My constituents told me that the key issue for them was antisocial behaviour. Time is short, so I shall provide just one example. A woman with a garage and patch of land behind her house has to contend with young people on that land every night who drink, dump condoms, rubbish and bottles, and terrorise the neighbourhood. Local people are terrified of going outside their doors at night. Members throughout the House are worried about precisely that issue, so I greatly welcome the Government's announcement this week.

David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire): In common with my hon. Friend, I speak to many communities in my constituency. One of the difficulties of tackling antisocial behaviour is obtaining witnesses to stand up and report what they have to endure to the courts. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government should do more to encourage the use of professional witnesses, which would remove some of the pressures and fears of those communities?

James Purnell: That is an interesting suggestion and I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister will take it up when she replies.

The burden of community policing must fall at the community level and in Tameside an innovative approach is being adopted that combines the police and local patrollers. With 100 or so people working together, we will reopen the sub-police stations that have been closed, base people in those areas permanently and have them available from 8 am to 10 pm, so that people will once again know their local constable. The constables will know the regular offenders in the area in the same

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way as they know the people who run the local post office and local teachers. The constables will have a genuine understanding of what is going on in the community, and that is where the real value of community policing lies. Individuals can build up a relationship with the people they serve, and work with local youth workers, schools and sports clubs to provide young people with an alternative and constructive use of their time. The great majority of young people are scapegoated for the misbehaviour of a small minority.

I hope that the Minister will consider two points. The first is bail. At my roving surgeries, people complained that curfews or restriction orders on offenders are difficult to enforce. A 15-year-old might be bailed on condition that he does not leave his home after 10 pm, but he does. He can be rearrested, bailed under the same condition, and break it again the next day and the day after. A shoplifter banned from the centre of town can go back again and again. I am told by David Crompton, my local chief superintendent, that it is difficult to take specific measures beyond the bail conditions to stop offenders breaking them time and again. Further measures are possible only in specific circumstances, such as interference with a witness or the possibility that the offender will not surrender to the police. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will address that issue.

The other issue of concern is alcohol. The sale of alcohol to young teenagers fuels much antisocial behaviour. We all know that it goes on, but the problem sometimes is that the only punishment is taking away the licence of the person selling the alcohol, and that is a big punishment. It should be used when licensees gravely abuse the terms of their licence, but I wonder whether intermediate measures could be threatened. For example, many off-licences rely significantly on lottery income. They can lose their lottery machines if they sell tickets to under-age players. Perhaps we could consider withdrawing that facility from those found guilty of selling alcohol to those under age. I also wonder whether anything else could be done to prevent people from selling alcohol to young teenagers. I would be grateful for the Minister's comments on those two issues.

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