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Dr. Palmer: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Paice: I am sorry, but I cannot give way.
We need someone to provide leadership to the local agencies and partnerships: the council, the housing authority, the Benefits Agency, environmental health and all the others involved. We may even need changes to legislation such as that on data protection. However, I am convinced that that leadership must come from a neighbourhood officer, and that role should be a distinct career path within the police and not a penance to be done and to be fitted in as and when other duties allow. I have seen examples of that happening, but they happen despite the system, not because of it.
The Home Secretary is deluding himself if he believes that there is not a problem with the burden of paperwork. Of course, he is not responsible for every single form in the country; nobody pretends that he is. However, we still do not have the computerised custody system that we have been promised ever since he has been in office. There are still 25 forms for every arrest. I have seen them, and my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Bacon) referred to them.
The Home Secretary talks about direct elections to police authorities, and we advocate them. However, who would stand for election to an authority whose role is now so diminished? That is why true accountability through direct elections will work only if it goes hand in hand with an ability to make a difference. That means local control over total budgets and local targets and setting local priorities.
I turn to some of the issues that the Home Secretary raised about our proposals in what was a travesty of a description and analysis of our policies. We are talking about police authorities directly elected by the population of each of the 43 forces that we have at present. The number is not 180, 8,000 or whatever other figure is bandied about. We are talking about a true locally elected police authority with real powers to control a block budget and to decide how to spend the money. We are talking about enhancing the role of the Association of Chief Police Officers so that information dissemination, best practice and consistency across all forces is achieved through the professional body, not imposed by the Home Office. Those are important changes, and they are the right way forward.
Over the past few years, there is no doubt that there has been increasing disjunction between the police and the public whom they serve. There is, I am afraid, so much public disillusionment that crimes are reported only if an incident number is necessary for an insurance claim. More and more people think that the police will not come and that, if they do, they will not do anything and that, if they do something, the criminal will get away with a smack on the wrist or even less, as my hon. Friends have described.
Is it entirely a coincidence that that has happened simultaneously with the ever-increasing centralisation that we have witnessed over the past few years? How can chief officers and commanders respond to local needs when they have to respond to Whitehall? Some brave officers have railed against the trend and have developed strong local forums. Even those local forums are relatively toothless; they have no real means of accountability back to the people whom they serve or for control over the force.
Did the Home Secretary really mean it when he said to the Police Federation:
- "I want the reduction in bureaucracy to be the fuel for freeing people to do the job sensibly"?
In short, if we are to have the neighbourhood policing that the whole House now largely believes is an essential development, we need to give power back to people on the ground. We need to allow police authorities to be directly elected and given the freedom to respond to local needs. After all, that is democracy—surely the Home Secretary is not afraid of that.
6.50 pm
The Minister for Crime Reduction, Policing, and Community Safety (Ms Hazel Blears): I am delighted to respond to the debate, but before I get into the meat of my speech I welcome the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Oaten) to his post. I am delighted that he finds the time to go out in Winchester on a Friday night but surprised that he is shocked that antisocial behaviour occurs on the streets on Friday and Saturday nights because most of us who live in such cities see such behaviour far too regularly. I advise him to get in touch with Manchester City Centre Safe, which has a fantastic programme to make the city centre a safe, vibrant and lively place where people may have a good night out. I
also hope that he listened carefully to contributions to the debate about antisocial behaviour. I hope that he will take a fresh look at his party's stance on the Anti-social Behaviour Bill so that it reflects that of the vast majority of people in this country, who want us to take tough enforcement action on antisocial behaviour and the police to be given powers to make a difference.We have had a good debate and I shall respond to hon. Members' comments. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Kilfoyle) expressed his concerns about antisocial behaviour in his community and gave us worrying examples of what happens. I know that the Merseyside police are absolutely committed to making their neighbourhood policing work. They now have about 90 public access points throughout Merseyside, which is more than ever. They are trying to ensure that the inspectors in localities know the need to attack all the issues on the ground. I entirely accept that good work is going on but that there is much more to do. The points that my hon. Friend raised should be taken seriously by the local police and I hope that the campaign on tackling antisocial behaviour that we launched yesterday will help to address those important issues in Merseyside and throughout the country on behalf of constituents.
The hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Bacon) talked about bureaucracy. We have abolished 2,800 forms, although I am perfectly happy to acknowledge that we need to do more. I was worried that he described the need to introduce diversity in the police force and to deal with child protection as bureaucracy. Such measures are central to ensuring that the police reflect important factors in our communities, so I would not class them as bureaucracy.
My hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (James Purnell) made a good speech in which he talked about antisocial behaviour in his community. I hope that he realises that the new powers that will be introduced next year under the Anti-social Behaviour Bill, such as nationwide fixed penalty notices, training and support for the antisocial behaviour academy and the action line, will help tremendously. He mentioned bail. I would ask his police superintendent to examine the possibility of obtaining interim antisocial behaviour orders because 66 were recently made in Leeds. When the powers of an interim order bite, they are an effective way of ensuring that conditions are enforced.
My hon. Friend also mentioned alcohol. He knows that we are preparing a national alcohol strategy and that we have introduced measures on under-age drinking and the confiscation of alcohol from youngsters drinking on the streets.
Ms Blears: My hon. Friend's idea about lottery machines is interesting and I shall find out whether we could take it further.
The hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink), who is very keen to claim credit for his work, talked about the important need for a twin-track approach on antisocial behaviour: support for those who want it and provisions for families and young people twinned with tough
enforcement and giving people the knowledge that consequences will follow from their actions. I am delighted that he supports the Government on every single point of our policy in this area and welcome his support.My hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer) made a thoughtful contribution that was typically useful and to the point. He exposed the emptiness of the Opposition's policy, although he was rather kind to call it vague and half-baked—I might have used more robust words.
The hon. Member for Upminster (Angela Watkinson) talked about the Conservative party's pledge of 40,000 extra officers. I am sorry to disappoint Conservative Members because the shadow Home Secretary made an admission today in a typically honest and straightforward fashion. He said that the pledge is only for the first four years and that he could not predict whether there would be a second-term Tory Government—heaven knows whether there will even be a first-term Tory Government—and, as a result, he could promise only 20,000 extra officers because he had no idea how the other 20,000 would be funded. He then acknowledged that 5,000 of the 20,000 would be appointed by us. So the pledge has gone from 40,000 to 20,000 to 15,000. It is decreasing by the hour, as we speak. I am sorry but the hon. Lady will be disappointed in the policy of her Front-Bench spokesmen.
Let me address the heart of the motion. Localism has become a bandwagon for the Tories to jump on. The right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin) prides himself on being a bit of a thinker. I am told that it has taken him two years to develop his ideas on devolution and localism. It is disappointing that after two years of deliberation, he has concluded that there is nothing the Government can do to change the lives of people for the better. His recipe for localism, which is about removing all support from the centre—no national standards or national framework—would return us to the chaos and anarchy of laissez-faire politics so beloved of the Tories 100 years ago. That political approach left people to fend for themselves. Money and privilege determined a person's success in life. There was no role for Government. Politics could not make a difference. Nothing was done to create opportunities and drive up standards, especially for the poorest.
The right hon. Gentleman sets a dangerous agenda. Behind his façade of local accountability lies the sad admission that, in his view, Government and politics cannot make a difference. I understand why he, as a member of the Tory party, thinks that things are hopeless, but I cannot accept—
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