House of Commons
Monday 20 October 2003
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. Speaker in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
WORK AND PENSIONS
The Secretary of State was asked—
Youth Unemployment
2. Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North): When he next plans to visit Nottingham, North to discuss youth unemployment. [132602]
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr. Andrew Smith): I shall be happy to visit my hon. Friend's constituency, especially as long-term youth unemployment there has been cut by 71 per cent., with 1,500 young people already helped into jobs by the new deal and by the good work of local bodies which I know enjoy energetic support from my hon. Friend.
Mr. Allen : Will my right hon. Friend continue to remind everybody that in 1997 in constituencies such as mine unemployment was the No. 1 problem and that it has been tackled effectively by his team and by previous teams? More than 2,000 people who were unemployed are now in jobs in my constituency as a result of the new deal programmes.
Will my right hon. Friend reassure me that the rumours that I have heard that the Opposition still intend to abolish large chunks of the new deal policy—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman should be seated. The Secretary of State should say nothing about Opposition proposals.
Mr. Smith: I strongly and warmly endorse the parts of the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen) that commended the new deal and our other policies for economic stability. Keeping people attached to the labour market has transformed the experience and the culture of expectations in Nottingham and places right across the country that previously endured mass unemployment. We have been proud to cut unemployment, and it would stagger me if anyone were to suggest abandoning programmes that have helped to give us the lowest unemployment in the G7 and the highest rate of employment.
Health and Safety (Royal Mint Llantrisant)
3. Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore): If he will make a statement on Crown immunity from prosecution for health and safety offences as it relates to the Royal Mint in Llantrisant. [132603]
The Minister for Work (Mr. Desmond Browne): The Government remain committed to removing Crown immunity from statutory health and safety enforcement and will seek a legislative opportunity to do so when parliamentary time allows.
In the meantime, the Health and Safety Executive applies Crown censure procedures where prosecution would have been justified but for Crown immunity. On 11 September 2002, the Royal Mint was censured under those procedures in respect of the circumstances of the accidental death of John Wynne.
Huw Irranca-Davies: I thank the Minister for that response and for the assurances that he has given and which I have received in writing from the Department. Does he agree that, for the benefit of Mr. Wynne's widow and family and the many others affected by Crown immunity from prosecution, the Health and Safety Executive recommendation of 1978 that Crown prosecution immunity should be lifted should be acted on as soon as possible? If the Government cannot find time in their legislative programme, will my hon. Friend be willing to support a private Member's Bill should one be forthcoming?
Mr. Browne: As my earlier answer implied, I am aware of the circumstances of the tragic death of John Wynne. Before I go on to the detail of my hon. Friend's question, I express my condolences to Mr. Wynne's widow, Mrs. Katrina Wynne, and to the rest of the family. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend's hard work on behalf of his constituent in that case.
My hon. Friend raises an important issue relating to the timing of this overdue reform. I can only repeat that the Government are committed to that reform and that as soon as an appropriate legislative opportunity makes itself available we shall reform the law in that regard.
Minimum Income Guarantee
4. Phil Sawford (Kettering): How many pensioners in the Kettering constituency are in receipt of the minimum income guarantee. [132604]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Eagle): About 3,100 pensioners in the Kettering constituency were receiving the minimum income guarantee. I can confirm that all my hon. Friend's constituents on the minimum income guarantee are now receiving pension credit.
Phil Sawford : I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Thousands of my constituents have benefited from the minimum income guarantee and welcomed the fact that they were all transferred to the new pension credit. What
action does my hon. Friend propose to ensure more take-up so that more people who may be entitled to the new tax credit claim it?
Maria Eagle: My hon. Friend will be aware that we have undertaken to write to all pensioners to encourage them to apply for their entitlement. There has also been a lot of publicity from the Department. Obviously, there is a certain amount of controversy about the policy and that, too, might raise people's awareness that there is an entitlement for which they can claim. I hope that, despite the controversy about the policy from the Opposition, all Members will urge their constituents, many of whom could be up to #400 a year better off on average, to claim the pension credit.
Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire): Of course we would urge constituents in all constituencies, particularly Kettering, to claim the pension credit, but has not the Minister estimated that 1.4 million of the poorest pensioners in the country will still not be claiming pension credit in 2006? Is Kettering a typical constituency? If it is, does that not mean that 2,000 of the poorest pensioners in Kettering will not be receiving the pension credit in 2006?
Maria Eagle: The hon. Gentleman is being a little disingenuous. He knows as well as we do that the 2006 figure that he quotes is a target, not a ceiling. My hon. Friend the Minister for Pensions has made it clear that we want everyone who is entitled to pension credit to claim, and the truth is that the Conservative party does not want them to claim because it does not want the policy to be the great success that it is going to be.
Mr. Gordon Marsden (Blackpool, South): My hon. Friend and the Government are to be commended for introducing the pension credit. When I have gone around Blackpool to talk to some of my older pensioner constituents in the past two to three years, one issue that has been raised with me concerns those people with very small savings who have not been getting benefits. Will my hon. Friend assure me that, in the process of rolling out the pension credit to an increasingly broad group of people—[Hon. Members: XKettering?"]—as in Kettering.
Mr. Marsden: Will my hon. Friend ensure that her officials give full attention to the need to be clear and concise in the language that they use on the hotlines and elsewhere?
Maria Eagle: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. I mistook the great cheer as meaning that my hon. Friend had finished, seemingly on a high.
Kettering is like many other constituencies in the sense that any of us who knock on doors regularly and talk to pensioners—whether in Kettering or elsewhere round the country—know very well that pensioners were greatly concerned that they were just missing out on help if they had been prudent enough to save during
their working lives. The pension credit is the first policy adopted that rewards saving, rather than penalises it, and it should be supported throughout the House.Pensioners (Means-tested Benefits)
5. Mr. Peter Viggers (Gosport): What proportion of pensioners are eligible for means-tested benefits. [132605]
The Minister for Pensions (Malcolm Wicks): Pension credit has removed the old weekly and intrusive means test. Instead, most pensioners aged 65 and over will have their award fixed for five years and only have to tell us about major changes in their circumstances. About half of all pensioner households will be eligible for pension credit and other income-related benefits, standing to gain #400 a year on average. Already, more than 1.1 million pensioner households on the credit will receive more money than they did before.
Mr. Viggers: With a firm of actuaries calculating that a couple would need to save #180,000 to float free from means-tested benefits, what advice does the Minister have to give to young couples on modest means who are planning for their retirement?
Malcolm Wicks: The example presented by the shadow Secretary of State was specific, very long-term and assumed that the couple were not owner-occupiers, which would not be typical of elderly households, so I dispute its usefulness. In the here and now, large numbers of people in Gosport—and, indeed, Kettering—stand to benefit from pension credit. I am pleased to inform the hon. Gentleman that 70 of his constituents attended a recent advice session in the Gosport bingo hall, which I am sure he is very familiar with, and they were given very good advice. Already, people in Gosport are benefiting from pension credit. Let us focus on that.
Mr. Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw): My hon. Friend supports total uptake in the pension credit system, but will he look into the fact that pensioners are not allowed to go into the Pension Service building in Motherwell to meet the staff face to face to discuss their claims?
Malcolm Wicks: We are very concerned—hon. Members' advice will be most welcome—to reach all elderly people who might be eligible for pension credit. That is why we have a number of advice surgeries in my hon. Friend's constituency and in all constituencies. There is also a telephone line, a freephone line, and we are arranging many home visits, but I should like to talk to my hon. Friend to get his advice on how to make pension credit even more accessible in his constituency.
Mr. David Willetts (Havant): I was very disappointed that the Minister did not accept the estimate by an independent firm of actuaries that a couple would need to save #180,000 during their working lives to secure
enough income to keep them off means-tested benefits when they retire, but if he does not agree with that figure, could he tell the House what his estimate is?
Malcolm Wicks: May I say that I have a report that Mercer actuary Deborah Cooper, who did the calculation, says that
- Xreports that people should save #180,000 or not bother at all are misleading"?
Mr. Willetts: Why does the Minister not give a simple answer to a simple question? All that Members of the House and the entire savings industry want to know is how much people need to have saved to build up a sum of money sufficient to float them off means-tested benefits. That is the sum needed to be confident that one has not mis-sold a pension. If the Minister does not accept the figure produced by Mercer, he owes the House an account of what his estimate is.
Malcolm Wicks: The hon. Gentleman's problem seems to be that Mercer may not accept the example that he cites. He asked for simple estimates, but he is being simplistic. What the figure might be depends on a wide range of assumptions, but bringing forward a figure that is in denial of owner-occupation, which is the common experience of pensioners, is not at all helpful. Pension credit is a major advance in recognising savings in this country.
Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden): Can I bring my hon. Friend's attention to the response of one of my real—not made-up—constituents, Mr. Catt of Pollards Hill? He wrote to me:
- Xthe really exciting news for me was the result from a claim made for minimum income support . . . not only have I been granted assistance with some MIG, but the increase within the new pension credit . . . is almost too good to be true. To be so much more financially independent is akin to the Promised Land."
Malcolm Wicks: Yes, indeed, and while Opposition Members may be more interested in the simplicity of far-fetched actuarial assumptions, I am pleased that my hon. Friend has brought this debate down to earth by talking about real people. I am delighted that in the Gosport constituency, for example, someone who had a home visit and had not been receiving minimum income guarantee previously is now #20 a week better off. In fact, because one of her friends happened to be there, too, that friend is also claiming attendance allowance for the first time. Surely we should welcome those human experiences and not knock a real social policy advance.
Annabelle Ewing (Perth): Is the Minister satisfied with the take-up rate of the means-tested pension credit in
Scotland by pensioners other than those who were already in receipt of the minimum income guarantee? If he is not satisfied, what does he plan to do to ensure that all pensioners in Scotland receive their entitlement, and that they do so as quickly as possible?
Malcolm Wicks: Of course we want every eligible elderly person in Scotland and across Great Britain to receive pension credit. That is why we have said previously that, although we have planning assumptions, we will not be satisfied until we reach every pensioner who might be eligible. May I say to the hon. Lady, however, that given that pension credit has only been in existence for a week or two, I hope that she will understand that it will take a little longer before we reach the targets that we have set.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North): What estimate does the Minister have of the comparative costs of administration of the pension credit compared with increasing the state pension to an equivalent level and recouping the excess wealth from others through income tax rather than through this system of administration of pension credit?
Malcolm Wicks: Of course there will be higher administrative costs for a targeted system than for a flat-rate system. By 2004–05, however, when the full pension credit will have been in place for a whole financial year, we will be spending over #9 billion more than in 1997. That gives my hon. Friend's constituents around Highbury stadium in Islington far more money, when they are on low incomes, than simply raising the basic pension. I am sure that he would welcome that for his constituents in Islington.
Mr. Hugo Swire (East Devon): Does the Minister not accept that, by extending means-testing in this way and by changing Government policy yet again, he is adding to the confusion of many of my elderly pensioners? Does he share the concern of the Select Committee on Trade and Industry about the payment of pensions? Post offices up and down the country—such as Knowle post office near Budleigh Salterton, which shut last week—are closing, so what practical steps can the Minister take to reassure real people such as my pensioners and the elderly and confused that they will find it easy to claim their pensions in future?
Malcolm Wicks: People use the term Xmeans-testing", but we need a serious and adult discussion about this. Pension credit is a million miles away from the old-fashioned weekly means test over which the hon. Gentleman's Government used to preside. His constituents can, through one phone call, find out whether they are eligible for pension credit, or there can be a home visit. Direct payments and the introduction of the Post Office card account are likely to guarantee the security of more local post offices as they start to use modern banking systems not only for the Post Office card account but for access to other accounts. That is the point.
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