| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Leslie: I am grateful to the Opposition Members who tabled this string of amendments relating, in particular, to the courts boards that we hope to set up. They give us an opportunity to look at how they will operate within the overall agency structure of the new unified courts administration. The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) was right to say that while these matters may seem dry, in many ways they go to the core of issues picked up regularly by the media: the operation of the courts and how they serve the public, and the criminal justice system in particular.
New clause 3 seeks to allow courts boards to meet one another, and also to be consulted on changes to circuit or regional boundaries. Of course we want courts boards to meet from time to time. Our aim in establishing them is not to create exclusive "silos" that never communicate with each other. Guidance will be issued to boards on how they should operate, and the ability to work across boundaries will be a key part of the new system. Boards will need to be aware of that in practice, and will need to consult each other in the same way as neighbouring managers.
Secondly, on the proposal that courts boards should be consulted about any proposals to alter circuit boundaries, I can assure the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey that the relevant courts boards would be consulted if we were to change regional boundaries in future. A change to regional boundaries might well have consequences for courts board areas; that is why consultation is already required under clause 4(6). At present, the only statutory requirement is for the Lord Chancellor to consult the Lord Chief Justice.
6.30 pm
Changes to the regional boundaries would necessitate consultation with all the parties who would be affected. If the Lord Chancellor decides to make future alterations to the boundaries, a similar level of consultation will be required, and the views of affected
courts boards, as part of the new administration, would be part of that. There is no need to single out courts boards for special consideration in that process, as the new clause proposes; indeed, that would ignore the important views of other groups with a fundamental interest in circuit and regional boundary issues.Having considered the views expressed by stakeholders on the options for the unified courts administration, we concluded that there should be 42 local areas and that the courts boards should match those. We also decided that there should be a regional tier of management to ensure that the agency can best support civil and family work, as well as the criminal jurisdiction, in dealing with cross-boundary issues and the deployment of the judiciary.
Simon Hughes: The Minister will have spotted the obvious anomaly that there is to be a London region, but, uniquely, only one board within it. Every other region in England and Wales will have several courts boards. Is not that a strong argument for the amendments?
Mr. Leslie: The hon. Gentleman is champing at the bit for me to turn to my comments on London. I assure him that there are good grounds for the conclusions that we have reached; I shall deal with that in a moment.
The Government's policy is that regional boundaries should match those of the nine Government regions and Wales unless there is a compelling reason to the contrary. The 42 criminal justice areas fit within those boundaries. Having accepted that nine regions and Wales are too many given the size of the organisation, we decided that there should be seven regions.It is clear from the comments of the hon. Members for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath), for Winchester (Mr. Oaten) and for Surrey Heath (Mr. Hawkins), among others, that much attention is focusing on which region will include Hampshire. A decision on whether it will be in the south-east or the south-west region will be made no later than 31 October. We have held meetings with the senior judiciary, representatives of the Bar Council and judges and barristers from the western circuit to assess the potential impact of a move away from the western circuit. We are listening to the views of all interested parties before reaching a conclusion. I do not want to pre-empt that decision, but I have no doubt that whatever the outcome hon. Members will find ingenious ways of raising the issue and cross-examining Ministers to hold us to account for our decision.
Amendments Nos. 2 and 56 propose that courts boards areas should be the same as, or fall within, police authority areas. The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey suggests that London should have five courts boards. A balance must be struck between ensuring effective management and addressing community needs in as local and responsive a way as possible. It is our intention that courts boards will provide members of local communities with much more input and influence over the administration of all the courts in their area—not only criminal courts—than they have ever had before. It cannot be denied that there are wide contrasts between communities in all areas, not just London. We must strike a balance between meeting
community needs and ensuring a workable management structure. In particular, a courts board area must have a certain core of workload volume, court business and courthouses. Police authority areas strike the right balance in London and elsewhere. They match those used by the probation service and the Crown Prosecution Service, while fitting in with local authorities.Turning to London, we decided that there should be a courts board at the Greater London level because that is the level at which decisions are taken in the capital. In particular, the Criminal Justice Board brings together the criminal justice agencies, including the Crown Prosecution Service, the police, the probation service and the courts. It is also the basis for the seat of the Mayor of London. If the London area were to be fragmented into freestanding sub-areas, where would the line be drawn? The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey argues that there should be five courts boards in London on the basis of the administrative regions that are employed by the Greater London Magistrates Courts Authority. However, those five will not necessarily automatically be more representative of London's diverse community or include a full range of boroughs. However, I see the sense of the hon. Gentleman's point in the broader sense, and I am happy to assure him that if the London courts board thinks that it needs a further sub-structure in order properly to drill down into local community needs, we will give that close consideration.
As an alternative proposal, the hon. Gentleman suggests that the London courts board needs to be an exception and that it should have at least three times more members than those in other regions. I do not believe that the figure of 21 would be particularly workable. We must strike a balance: a courts board must be not only workable and capable of taking a strategic view, but able to make decisions without having the "large committee" feeling that could result from an excessive number of members. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his ingenuity in arguing for three times the membership for the London courts board, but even that figure would not necessarily include everyone he would want to have a seat. Having seven members on each courts board is a realistic and workable starting point, but the Bill offers a great deal of scope for adding more members if that is deemed appropriate. In practice, therefore, if the London courts board, in common with those in the rest of the country, thinks that it needs more members, the Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State will be happy to consider it.
Simon Hughes: Can the Minister put on the record the balance of the representations that he has received on the London issue? If not, will he do so in writing? Will he further undertake that in the course of the consultation he will not only read, but have his opinion influenced by, the balance of views that are expressed? He knows as well as I do that there is a strong feeling that we need a structure that works for the whole community across London.
Mr. Leslie: The hon. Gentleman is right to say that we need to pay close attention to the particular circumstances facing a London courts board, but it is important that it is able to match the boundaries of the
Crown Prosecution Service, the probation service and the Greater London Authority. I will ensure that we have further opportunities to consider the matter.
Mr. Heath: Will the Minister turn his attention for a moment to the royal courts of justice? The Lord Chief Justice believes that he has an agreement with the Lord Chancellor that there will be a special arrangement for the royal courts of justice. Can the Minister confirm whether that is the case?
Mr. Leslie: I am afraid that I do not have the minutes of any meeting between the Lord Chief Justice and the Lord Chancellor regarding the situation of the royal courts of justice in respect of a London courts board. It is an interesting point. I shall discuss it with my noble Friend and write to the hon. Gentleman.
Amendment No. 59 seeks to establish that regulations will be made in terms of how courts boards should liase with local councils. To single out local authorities for special legislative treatment is questionable. Many other agencies and groups, including the police and the Crown Prosecution Service, have a key role to play in the administration of justice in a local area. It would be better management practice to establish good links with all of those groups. The Lord Chancellor will require agency managers and the courts boards to consult and to take account of their wider stakeholder base, and they must make sure that arrangements are put in place to ensure that that happens. That will of course include local authorities, as a good partnership will be vital in policy areas such as children, housing and tackling antisocial behaviour, to name but three. As the guidance that we issue will make clear, that will be critical in the case of London as well, but we do not need to allow the boards the freedom to consider just local authorities. However, they should have the freedom to reflect the need to consult a much wider area. I therefore hope that hon. Members agree that this amendment is not necessary.
Amendment No. 51—under the terms of which, courts boards would not exceed the size of police authority areas—is too restrictive. We have announced that from the start of the new agency, courts board areas and agency managerial units will match the 42 police authority areas. However, it is theoretically possible that when matters have bedded down—I am not prejudging the issue—it might make sense to join up some areas, given that work moves across their boundaries frequently. It would be wrong to close off that option simply because of the legislative obstacle that this amendment would constitute. It is also important to remember that courts boards will not be concerned with criminal business alone; they will have a wider remit, including civil courts, family courts and so forth, so simply to restrict them to police authority areas is not the right approach. The consensus may well be reached that merging areas is the right way to proceed, and it would be wrong if courts boards were to discover a legislative obstacle that prevented them from doing so. As I said, we intend at this stage that the courts boards match the 42 police authority areas, but at the moment it would be wrong to include such a fettering amendment.
Under amendment No. 3, courts boards would have a particular duty to monitor how well the Lord Chancellor consults magistrates. Courts boards already
have a statutory duty to scrutinise, review and make recommendations on the way in which the Lord Chancellor is discharging his general duty. An essential component of that duty will be to scrutinise the way in which the new agencies work with all of their stakeholders: magistrates and judges, lay and professional court users, and members of the local community. There is no need, therefore, to create a link between clauses 5 and 21. It would be wrong to single out magistrates and only partially to reflect courts boards' wider role; to do so would imply a narrower role for courts boards than we currently envisage. They will be concerned not just with local magistrates courts, but with the needs of local areas in their entirety, and of the entire courts system. For that reason, amendment No. 3 would be an incorrect route to take.Clause 21, which was included in the Bill with the backing of the Magistrates Association, already includes a duty to build effective lines of communication with all stakeholders. It guarantees magistrates that, in terms of what affects them in the performance of their judicial duties, proper lines of communication will be established between them and courts' administration. It is unnecessary to go further by giving special prominence to magistrates in respect of the duties of courts boards. We are discussing with the Magistrates Association what clause 21 means in practice, with a view to identifying the key issues and some guiding principles for magistrates and managers. The balance that the Bill strikes is therefore the right one, so I ask hon. Members to withdraw the new clause and related amendments.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |