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Mr. Jenkin: I should be very grateful to the hon. Gentleman if he said where the draft treaty says that.
Mr. MacShane: As part of the treaty of Nice, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence
made clear, it will be up to each European member state to decide whether its soldiers, sailors or airmen are deployed in any European operation.The right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory), who is not in his place, intervened to say that NATO should give permission before any European state or any coalition of European states take any action. He may want to reflect on the notion that the House of Commons and this sovereign nation should have to seek permission from anyone before deciding to deploy our armed forces in action.
Mr. Keetch: The record should be checked. The right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) was saying, as I understood it, that America, not NATO, should give permission before any other country intervened. If he did refer to America—the Secretary of State for Defence is nodding—and the Conservative position is that America should have a right of veto over the deployment of Her Majesty's armed forces, let alone forces from the rest of Europe, that is pretty disgraceful.
Mr. MacShane: It is important that we work in partnership and collaboration with our allies—including, of course, the United States—but we are not in the permission game and the Government will certainly take the only decisions that count: those to send any of our armed services into action. That point was underlined in the interview that Ambassador Burns gave on Radio Free Europe when he said:
- "The UK is the closest ally of the US and we have a perfect understanding of each other and we are working closely together and there are no problems between the US and the UK on this issue".
Mr. Soames: The hon. Gentleman is an expert in this knockabout stuff, but does he not understand that that the declaration made in April by Germany, France, Luxembourg and Belgium on European defence was extremely divisive and has led to profound concern in America and elsewhere? This is not to do with driving wedges; it is a profound concern about the future of European defence. Will the hon. Gentleman take seriously the real anxieties raised by many Opposition Members who want Europe to play a bigger role in its own defence and who understand that the action of Germany, France, Luxembourg and Belgium represents a serious slap in the face for NATO and is likely to cause the gravest confusion?
Mr. MacShane: The hon. Gentleman is repeating word for word speeches that I have made across the continent. I made exactly those points. I hope that when the necessary 25 signatures have been found, the hon. Gentleman will assume his rightful place as shadow Secretary of State for Defence because he would
certainly make a much better fist of it—he would understand Europe and the United States—than the hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin).
Mr. Jenkin: Where was all that said?
Mr. MacShane: I repeat my answer. If the hon. Gentleman likes, I can send him chapter and verse of speeches on the record and on the Foreign and Commonwealth website in which I made exactly the point that we have two ways in European defence—NATO, which has stood the test of time and has a big future in front of it, and what we need to do at European level. As a good new Labour MP, I say that there is no need for a third way. I have said that time and again.
Mr. Jenkin: Does the hon. Gentleman believe that the United States agrees with the following statement:
- "The EU should have a common capability for the planning and leadership of operations independent of NATO means and capabilities",
Mr. MacShane: The Government's policy remains to build on decisions taken by previous Governments to ensure an effective European contribution. Whether in Operation Alba in Albania, when a European initiative was blocked by the previous Government, or in the Congo, Kosovo, Sierra Leone or East Timor, it is right that European forces should be prepared to accept their responsibilities.
The Conservatives, as we know, ruined much of the UK's defence capability in the 1990s with their massive cuts. They damaged the alliance with United States by their crass interference in American domestic politics in the middle 1990s. They undermined, if not destroyed, Britain's standing in Europe with their relentless hostility to a constructive partnership with the EU. Above all, they did nothing to stop Milosevic turning the former Yugoslavia into Europe's killing fields. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill reminded the House that the Conservative party, when in power, sought to block Operation Alba. Like Neville Chamberlain, the political godfather to today's isolationist Tory Front Bench, the Conservatives turned their eyes away from the terror and torture of Milosevic. More than 1 million asylum seekers cascaded into northern Europe from Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo and even Serbia because the Conservatives refused to come to grips with reality.
Today, the Conservative party is out on the far right of the extreme end of anti-European politics. While President Bush and our own Prime Minister struggle to defeat fascist terrorism in Iraq, the Conservatives, as we saw in their disgracefully opportunistic motion last week, only want to undermine the United States and our nation for having the guts to take on Saddam's tyranny and terror. Derided in Europe, of no interest to the United States and ignored in our country, today's Tories have nothing to say. This opportunistic, dishonest, badly worded and irrelevant motion is the last gasp of a party that looks into the future and sees no place. One day, a Tory leadership will emerge that is capable of talking sense to Europe and being an effective partner of the United States. Let us all hope that that leadership emerges, if not tonight, as soon as possible. I
ask all hon. Members to support the Government amendment and reject the anti-European, divisive motion tabled by those on the Conservative Front Bench.Question put, That the original words stand part of the Question:—
The House divided: Ayes 134, Noes 336.
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Amess, David
Ancram, rh MichaelArbuthnot, rh JamesAtkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bacon, Richard
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Baron, John (Billericay)
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir PaulBlunt, Crispin
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW Surrey)
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burnside, DavidBurt, Alistair
Butterfill, John
Cameron, David
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Tim
Conway, DerekCormack, Sir Patrick
Cran, James (Beverley)
Curry, rh David
Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Duncan, Peter (Galloway)
Duncan Smith, rh IainFabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Fox, Dr. Liam
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Garnier, Edward
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Gillan, Mrs CherylGoodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Grayling, ChrisGreen, Damian (Ashford)Grieve, Dominic
Gummer, rh John
Hammond, Philip
Hawkins, Nick
Hayes, John (S Holland)
Heald, OliverHeathcoat-Amory, rh David
Hendry, Charles
Horam, John (Orpington)
Howard, rh Michael
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Jack, rh Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson, Boris (Henley)
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Kirkbride, Miss JulieKnight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Lilley, rh Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
Mackay, rh AndrewMaclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Maude, rh Francis
Mawhinney, rh Sir BrianMay, Mrs TheresaMercer, Patrick
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Moss, Malcolm
Norman, Archie
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, DavidSayeed, Jonathan
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Soames, Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, AngelaWhittingdale, John
Widdecombe, rh MissWiggin, Bill
Wilkinson, JohnWilletts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. John Randall and
Mr. Mark Francois
NOES
Abbott, Ms DianeAinger, NickAinsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, DouglasAllan, RichardAllen, Graham
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, JohnBailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Banks, Tony
Barrett, JohnBarron, rh KevinBattle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beith, rh A. J.Bell, StuartBenton, Joe (Bootle)
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Blears, Ms Hazel
Borrow, David
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)Breed, ColinBrennan, KevinBrooke, Mrs Annette L.Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)Bruce, MalcolmBryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnham, Andy
Burstow, PaulCable, Dr. VincentCaborn, rh RichardCairns, David
Calton, Mrs PatsyCampbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, rh Menzies (NE Fife)Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Chidgey, DavidClapham, Michael
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, DavidCoaker, VernonCoffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)Cook, rh RobinCooper, Yvette
Cotter, BrianCousins, Jim
Cruddas, JonCryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)Cummings, JohnCunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Darling, rh Alistair
Davey, Edward (Kingston)Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Davis, rh Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dismore, Andrew
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Donohoe, Brian H.
Doran, FrankDowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drew, David (Stroud)
Dunwoody, MrsEagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Etherington, BillField, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Fitzsimons, Mrs LornaFlint, CarolineFlynn, Paul (Newport W)
Follett, BarbaraFoster, rh DerekFoster, Don (Bath)Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Foulkes, rh George
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
Gardiner, BarryGeorge, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. IanGidley, SandraGilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Roger
Goggins, Paul
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)Griffiths, JaneGriffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh PeterHall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hancock, MikeHanson, David
Harris, Dr. EvanHarris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)Harvey, NickHavard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Heath, DavidHenderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hermon, Lady
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, Keith (Streatham)Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Margaret
Holmes, PaulHood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Hoon, rh Geoffrey
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Hoyle, LindsayHughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)Jamieson, David
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jowell, rh TessaJoyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Keetch, PaulKemp, Fraser
Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)Khabra, Piara S.
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Kirkwood, Sir ArchyKnight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. AshokLadyman, Dr. Stephen
Lamb, NormanLammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laws, David (Yeovil)Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
MacDougall, JohnMcFall, John
McGuire, Mrs AnneMcIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, RosemaryMackinlay, Andrew
McNamara, KevinMcNulty, Tony
MacShane, DenisMactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mandelson, rh PeterMann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Meacher, rh Michael
Meale, Alan (Mansfield)Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Alan
Miller, AndrewMitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moffatt, Laura
Moore, MichaelMoran, Margaret
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
Oaten, Mark (Winchester)O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
Organ, Diana
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris (Gravesham)
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)Prescott, rh John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Pugh, Dr. JohnPurchase, KenPurnell, James
Quin, rh JoyceQuinn, Lawrie
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)Rendel, DavidRobertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)Sanders, AdrianSavidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, BarrySimon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Singh, MarshaSkinner, Dennis
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)Soley, Clive
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, PaulStunell, AndrewTami, Mark (Alyn)Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Teather, SarahThomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Tonge, Dr. JennyTouhig, Don (Islwyn)
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)Ward, ClaireWareing, Robert N.
Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
Watts, David
Webb, Steve (Northavon)White, BrianWhitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Worthington, Tony
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Tellers for the Noes:
Jim Fitzpatrick and
Mr. Jim Murphy
Question accordingly negatived.
Question, That the proposed words be there added, put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 31 (Questions on amendments), and agreed to.
Madam Deputy Speaker forthwith declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to.
- That this House believes that NATO is, and should remain, the cornerstone of Europe's collective defence; believes in the importance of European nations building up their military capabilities to contribute more to their defence and security through NATO and the EU; welcomes the development of the European Security and Defence Policy as a part of the Common Foreign and Security Policy, including its role in undertaking operations where NATO as a whole is not engaged; welcomes the "Berlin Plus" agreement which provides the EU with assured access to NATO planning and presumed access to NATO assets and capabilities for military operations; and welcomes the success of the ESDP operation undertaken in the Democratic Republic of Congo and the continuing military operation in Macedonia and police operation in Bosnia.
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