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4.30 pm
There was once an all-party river crossing group—perhaps the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) remembers it—and Eric Heffer, a Labour Member, was one of its leading lights. Many hon. Members believe that the day should come when no tolls are charged. I am opposed to road tolling. Indeed, it is an 18th century concept that goes back to the turnpike trusts, all of which were abolished by 1895, but here we are today debating tolls on a major traffic route that is important not only to Merseyside, but nationally. That is absurd.
We should take our cue from what happens with other natural monopolies. In a 1998 Green Paper entitled "A Fair Deal for Consumers", the Government recommended—and, indeed, later established—a general duties diktat on the regulators, which was enshrined in the Utilities Act 2000. The regulators were to put the interests of consumers first—all consumers: industrial, business and domestic. None of that applies statutorily to the MPTA.
When the Utilities Act 2000 was passed on to the statute book, it dealt with the activities of the gas and electricity industries. The Gas and Electricity Markets Authority was set up, and it can impose financial penalties on utility companies that are in breach of their statutory requirements. Nothing like that exists for the Mersey tunnels. The Secretary of State appointed three members of that authority. The Minister should consider what was done then and what could be done now to ensure real accountability and consultation by the MPTA.
Under the Utilities Act 2000, the Competition Commission was given powers to act if it found that the gas and electricity authorities were not remedying adverse effects on consumers. Nothing like that exists for the Mersey tunnels.
Mr. George Howarth (Knowsley, North and Sefton, East): I am anxious not to extend this debate and my hon. Friend's speech any longer than is absolutely necessary, but does he accept—he admitted as much earlier—that by no stretch of the imagination are the tunnels a monopoly?
Mr. Wareing: I certainly reject the idea that the tunnels are not a monopoly; of course they are a monopoly. In fact, they are probably one of the most perfect examples of a monopoly that can be found in the British economy. Indeed, there are signs of competition in the gas and electricity industries, particularly since privatisation, so there can be competition between such companies. There is no competition with the MPTA. If my hon. Friend thinks that there is, perhaps he swims regularly across the River Mersey. There is no other way in which heavy traffic can cross the River Mersey at that
point. Heavy traffic cannot cross unless its goes all the way round to Runcorn and Widnes to deliver goods or collect materials.
Mr. Howarth: I hesitate to intervene again, and I promise to behave myself for the remainder of the debate, but to put the matter straight, as my hon. Friend rightly said some moments ago, there are ferries and, as he has now conceded, the Widnes to Runcorn bridge, which my constituents use far more regularly than the tunnels, as well as the rail system that runs under the river. I cannot see how, by any stretch of the imagination, that can constitute any kind of monopoly.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Before the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Wareing) responds, I should direct him back to the scope of these amendments. We are not discussing the Bill as a whole. There may be an opportunity to do that on Third Reading, and it would be a pity if the hon. Gentleman stole his own thunder at this stage. I urge him to look at the terms of the amendments in concluding his remarks.
Mr. Wareing: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
My argument, of course, is that there should be bodies to represent the consumers of Merseyside. In one of the amendments I refer to a number of organisations, such as trade unions and the Liverpool and Wirral chambers of commerce, which should be consulted. What I am suggesting is that some form of consumers council, such as that set up under the Utilities Act 2000 for other utility services, could be a model for consultation on the Mersey tunnels. Despite what my hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth) says—I am glad that he is going to behave now, which he usually does, but one never knows with him—we are considering a monopoly rather than an oligopoly, which exists in certain other utility services.
I do not expect that we will come to a conclusion on this matter tonight. When the Bill goes to the other place, however, the Government should consider seriously—I cannot understand how such a rational idea could be opposed—including the question of consultation and a consumers body in a new Government amendment. It seems to me that there is no reason why both sides of our argument about the Bill should not come together on that. I hope that the Minister's reply will at least come close to what I have been recommending in all good faith.
Mrs. Claire Curtis-Thomas (Crosby): I have listened carefully to the arguments presented by my hon. Friends and other hon. Members this afternoon, and I cannot agree with them about the consultation. I have worked with the promoter of the Bill for a number of years, and I am satisfied that it executes the requirements of its work with regard to consultation with a diligence for which I have a great regard. I therefore ask my hon. Friends and other hon. Members to withdraw their amendments.
Mr. Ben Chapman: I would be grateful if my hon. Friend could elucidate that point by giving a couple of examples of how the Merseyside passenger transport authority has responded positively to points made in consultation.
Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: I can understand my hon. Friend's desire to extend this debate for as long as possible, but I believe that all the points that have been raised with respect to consultation have already been covered.
Mr. Miller: Is my hon. Friend saying on behalf of the promoter of this Bill that people resident in Cheshire, outside the catchment zone of the five district councils that are shareholders, have no rights in consultation? Is she satisfied that that does not breach the statutory duty in respect of best value legislation?
Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, but I believe that the door to Merseytravel has always been open and that it is always responsive to reasoned arguments about improvements and the service available.
Mr. Chope: I am afraid that the contribution made by the hon. Member for Crosby (Mrs. Curtis-Thomas) has left rather a nasty taste in the mouth. Does she really think that when summing up a serious debate in which many hon. Members from both sides of the House have participated, all she need do is assert that all the points relating to consultation have been covered, so that is the end of the argument? She does a disservice to the House because we have put pertinent points cogently and coherently—but not extensively—to the promoter of the Bill. In so far as she speaks for the promoter, we assumed that she absented herself from the Chamber for some of debate to take instructions from it so that she could give us responses.
Stephen Hesford: Has it occurred to the hon. Gentleman that the surprising reticence of my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mrs. Curtis-Thomas) mirrors exactly the instructions that she has probably been given by Merseytravel? Merseytravel does not want to say anything or engage in debate.
Mr. Chope: I do not know what instructions the hon. Lady received, but I am aware that she has strong views of her own. If she had received instructions with which she disagreed, I am sure that she would have spoken out. She has fearlessly spoken out on several issues in the House—I agree with that. That is why her reticence when responding to points from the debate is so bizarre.
Bob Spink: Does my hon. Friend think that that is even more extraordinary given that the withdrawal of the opposing petitions in Committee meant that there was no light shone on the matter? There was no clarification, investigation or probing, so it was extraordinary of the hon. Member for Crosby (Mrs. Curtis-Thomas) to make no comment on the well reasoned amendments.
Mr. Chope: My hon. Friend makes the same point as me.
I doubt very much whether the other place will allow the promoters of the Bill to get away with such an arrogant approach. The conventions that used to apply in this House still apply in the other place, so Members of the other place who respond to a debate actually deal with points that have been raised. Some Ministers and hon. Members in this House have not complied with
that convention for some time. If Members of the other place make points that are not answered, they expect to be able to debate them at greater length on another occasion.
Mr. Frank Field: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the point is not only that the conventions that used to apply here will apply when the Bill reaches the other place? The Government find it more difficult to get legislation through the other place than this House.
Mr. Chope: The right hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point.
The hon. Member for Crosby is not the only person who has refused to participate at length in the debate. The spokesman for the Liberal Democrats, the hon. Member for Southport (Dr. Pugh), has not said anything. That might be because the Liberal Democrats have a different policy on congestion charging in different parts of the country. London Liberal Democrats say that they are in favour of it, but we are not sure of the Liberal Democrat position on Merseyside. We know that the Liberal Democrats are against tolls for the Skye bridge, but perhaps that it because the leader of the party represents the constituency in which the bridge is situated.
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