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1.23 pm
Mr. Eric Forth (Bromley and Chislehurst): I want to start by broadly endorsing the remarks of the Leader of the House and the content of the motions tabled in his name.
The House will recall that we agreed this matter in principle, albeit narrowly, some time ago; we are therefore returning to it simply to give it effect. It is important to remember, however, that that narrowness should make us sensitive to the fact that many hon. Members, perhaps some here present, were and are unhappy about the approach that we are taking: we should therefore show due caution.
The fact that the matter was referred to an outside body for determination means that, as the Leader of the House said, it should not in any way be interpreted as this House lining its own pockets. Although we have approved the principle, for reasons that I thoroughly support, it is worth recalling that the amount that was recommended, and is reflected in the motions, was set by that most independent of bodies, the Senior Salaries Review Body.
Mr. Salmond: I presume that the shadow Leader of the House, as a convinced free marketeer, accepts the principle of supply and demand in determining salaries. Has he noticed any shortage of supply of suitably qualified candidates to chair Select Committees? If so, does he believe that that should be taken into account?
Mr. Forth: Funnily enough, I was going to consider that point in a slightly different context. I shall comment later on its relevance to the Chairmen's Panel—a subject that is close to my heart and that I want to raise with the Leader of the House. In a sense, the hon. Gentleman is right. I suspect that if Members were paid nothing, there would be some eccentrics demanding to do the job. But that is not the modern way. We must accept that although some of us thoroughly enjoy the job, we are paid because we have to feed our families and pay our mortgages.
We are considering a different issue, which the Leader of the House mentioned briefly. It is important to set it in context and remind ourselves of where we come from. I have had the privilege of serving in the House for 20 years. I have been a Government Back Bencher and was privileged to be a Minister for some nine years. I have been an Opposition Back-Bench Member and I am currently in the shadow Cabinet. Who knows where I shall be in a week or so's time? All that gives me an interesting perspective. From the moment I arrived, I was conscious of an imbalance in the sense that although there is a career structure for those who want to be Ministers, there has never been such a structure in the House. For colleagues who may not want to become Ministers or may not have that privilege, it is important to acknowledge that there is a proper job to be done as a parliamentarian rather than a Minister. The motion and our votes in principle for the proposals a couple of years ago reflect a move towards that by acknowledging that it is proper to make some sort of payment in recognition not only of the additional responsibilities of being a Committee Chairman but of the alternative career structure that it could offer Members of Parliament. I endorse the motion on that basis.
One of the amendments that were not selected reflects questions about the SSRB's recommendation that only some Committee Chairmen should be paid. Like the Leader of the House, I am for the moment content to accept that we should proceed on that basis. However, I hope that we shall keep the matter in mind. I accept the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas Winterton); I suspect that if he catches your eye, Mr. Speaker, he will shortly make it again in his usual forceful way. He said that the list to which the Leader of the House referred is not sacrosanct and should not be regarded as the final word on this matter. Distinguishing between Select Committees and considering whether the distinction we make today is correct are contentious matters. We should feel free to revert to them after the House approves the motions.
Mr. Hain: I endorse the right hon. Gentleman's points. The motion should not be the final word on the matter. We should ascertain how the proposals bed down and how we proceed.
Mr. Forth: I am grateful to the Leader of the House for those comments. I hope that they will give some comfort to those who are uneasy about the precise form of words.
The same argument applies to the amount of the additional salary that is being recommended. Again, I
amplify the comments of the Leader of the House. Paragraph 2.30 on page 8 of the SSRB's report states:
- "Taking all these issues into account we have decided to take a cautious initial approach to the pay of the Chairmen of the relevant committees. In so doing we announce our intention to revisit the pay of Committee Chairmen as part of our continuing fundamental reviews from time to time of parliamentary pay and allowances, the next to occur in 2003–04. By then, we may be better placed to assess whether or not the new "core tasks" become firmly bedded into the departmental Committee structure, and are delivering the wider scrutiny and investigative objectives envisaged by the Modernisation and Liaison Committees, and, if so, the consequences for the work of the Chairmen."
The approach is rightly cautious at this stage but I am happy that the Leader of House has said that it will be kept under review.
Mr. Bercow: Although the Leader of the House dealt lightly and perhaps too briefly with my intervention about the basis for composing Select Committees, does my right hon. Friend agree that the composition of the Committees and the basis for deciding who becomes a Chairman are inextricably bound up with the question of pay? If we do not deal adequately with the need to democratise the chairmanship of the Committees, the Chairmen will literally become members of the payroll vote.
Mr. Forth: I am with my hon. Friend on that matter. His eagle eye will have noted that amendments that sought to deal with that problem were tabled, but sadly not selected. The controversial decision that the House made two years ago about our method of nominating members of Select Committees and the way in which those Committees subsequently choose their Chairmen—or not—means that we must revert to the matter as a result of our actions today. If one argues for an alternative career structure as a parliamentary matter, it is difficult to square that with procedure hitherto, which provides that the usual channels, the Whips, have an iron grip not so much on membership—the Government have probably gone further than us on that—but on chairmanships. If the House approves payment for Chairmen, the issue becomes even more relevant than when we previously considered the matter. When the Deputy Leader of the House winds up the debate for the Government, I hope that he will give us some encouragement.
Mr. Sheerman: The right hon. Gentleman is presenting a good analysis of the position. Although I missed a couple of minutes of the speech of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, I do not believe that anyone has yet mentioned Lord Sheldon, whose input into all the deliberations was so important. He is the architect of much of the proposals.
Mr. Forth: I am more than happy to pay tribute to Lord Sheldon, a distinguished and long-serving Member of the House of Commons. If anyone feels any guilt about the proposals or the need to blame anyone else, Lord Sheldon can fill that role. That is doubly beneficial and I am grateful to the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sheerman) for his intervention.
I do not wish to detain hon. Members; I have made my views clear. Although the vote is genuinely free, as it should be on such a parliamentary matter, I hope that my hon. Friends can support my view. I make one last plea to the Leader of the House about a subject that is close to my heart and relevant to the proposals. I believed from the start that those who genuinely deserved increased pay were the members of the Chairmen's Panel. That body carries out extraordinarily important work on behalf of the House in an unglamorous, usually unrecognised way. Without it, the House could not function. If I may say so without upsetting anyone present, Select Committee Chairmen enjoy much more glamour and travel and are probably able to get more direct satisfaction from their work. They appear in the media and so on. Perhaps that is the wrong way round. Now that we have established the principle of additional pay and a parliamentary career structure, and if we accept the motions today to give effect to that, I hope that the Leader of the House and the Modernisation Committee will consider the Chairmen's Panel specifically, and perhaps other similar matters that they deem appropriate. I say that because I believe that it is important that the Chairmen's Panel attracts Members of the highest calibre and ability, and that we recognise and reward that appropriately. I hope, therefore, that if we can deal with this business satisfactorily today, get the details right and get on with it in a flexible way that is not set in concrete, the Modernisation Committee will allow us to move on and to deal with the matter of the Chairmen's Panel as a matter of urgency. I hope that the House will feel able to agree to the motions before it today, and I wish the Select Committee Chairmen well as a result.
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