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Sir Nicholas Winterton: The hon. Gentleman is displaying his case in an analytical way that is very helpful. I remind him that the SSRB was fairly specific in respect of the list of Committees whose Chairmen would receive remuneration, but that its recommendation clearly states that the final decision on which Committees to include should be determined by the House itself. However, the House is being denied that opportunity this afternoon. I ask the rhetorical question: why?
Mr. Tyler: I echo that rhetorical question. I suspect that the hon. Gentleman will ask it again later, if he catches your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
My central point is that I believe that we are being asked to adopt a piecemeal approach to a matter that is very important for the reputation of Parliament, the way that it operates and the sort of people that are attracted into different jobs here. We have been taken into this rather absurd and narrow cul de sac by the way in which the SSRB remit was devised, by the report that it made and by the way in which we are having to deal with the motion this afternoon.
That is most unfortunate. It would not be appropriate for the SSRB to look at the wider issues. It is asked to do very specific tasks. Its responsibility, background and experience are not appropriate when it comes to deciding how the House should remunerate those key people who serve the nation through serving the House.
Another body—perhaps the Modernisation Committee, I do not know—will have to look at the wider issues. I hope that the Minister will give the House a specific assurance that the matter is not a fait accompli and that we have not reached the end of the road in respect of it. The Government must recognise that there are wider and very serious concerns on all sides of the House. Those matters have been represented in the amendments in today's Order Paper, and in this afternoon's debate. It would not be appropriate to refer the matter again to the SSRB. Only this House, with the advice of an appropriate Select Committee, can make these important decisions. The future reputation of hon. Members as effective scrutineers of what the Executive do is at stake.
2.22 pm
Mr. Alan Williams (Swansea, West): As Chairman of the Liaison Committee, I should like to make a few remarks in response to the arguments that have been advanced. First, what we are discussing today is not a choice between pay and extra staff. When I first became Chairman of the Committee, I had discussions with every other Select Committee Chairman. I was overwhelmingly impressed by the sheer inadequacy of the support provided to the Committees.
I made a recommendation to the House of Commons Commission, which fortunately it accepted, that we should have an independent review and that that review should include the membership of the National Audit Office, so that everyone could see that it was absolutely objective. The review took place, and made major recommendations in respect of changes to the back-up provided for Select Committees. In fairness to the Government and to the Commission, I must say that both have accepted the recommendations.
The problem of those in the process of being recruited at the moment is thus being addressed. The problem that we are discussing today is separate, and I hope that that reassures my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) somewhat.
I spent 22 years on the Front Bench, but for most of that time I was on the wrong side of the House. I want to assure Opposition Members glumly anticipating a similar experience that the House must recognise that Front-Bench Members of all Opposition parties put in an enormous amount of work, with minimal back-up. Often, they have to respond at very short notice to statements and so on. If they go unrewarded, they do so in the hope of rewards in the future, when their party comes to government.
Today's proposal is, like the proposal on staffing, the result of an independent review. The recommendation comes not from the House of Commons but from the Senior Salaries Review Body. The list that was referred to was compiled by the SSRB, not the Government. My reading of the report suggests that the list is based on the division into investigative and non-investigative functions. The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas Winterton) is the Chair of the Procedure Committee, and I make the point to him that the report recommends that the final choice in respect of the list should be left to the House of Commons.
The Government have acted appropriately in putting forward the list recommended by the independent SSRB review. Unfortunately, there is no provision today to allow hon. Members to discuss amending that list. For example, hon. Members might have decided to remove some Committees from the list: one that is listed, which I will not name, incurs a minimal amount of extra work. By contrast, if the amendment tabled by the Chair of the Procedure Committee had been selected, I would have supported it, as I think that there is a case to be made for his Committee's inclusion. I hope that that will be borne in mind, and that we will be able to put forward some recommendations before the next SSRB review in the spring.
Sir Nicholas Winterton: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, but the SSRB recommendations state that the final decision on the Committees to be included in
the list should be made by the House. That means that the House does not have to accept the SSRB's recommendations. Does it not seem extraordinary that we have no opportunity today to consider amendments that might amend that list—bearing in mind the reservations expressed by the right hon. Gentleman about a Committee that has been included?
Mr. Williams: I believe that that would have been much more in the spirit of the findings of the report—but I must be careful, as I value my good relationship with the Chair. I am not aware of the procedural background or the precedents in respect of amendments to motions of this kind. It might have been helpful if the House had been able to amend the list, but the hon. Gentleman must pursue that matter with the Chair.
Some of the men and women who chair Select Committees have indicated that they may not take the pay. As I pointed out, that is up to them, and it is no reason for them to oppose the recommendation. No one is going to force feed them money, but they are able to choose whether they take the salary on offer.
The right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) is Chair of the Select Committee on Standards and Privileges. I have served with him for some time. His Committee has recommended that Chairs should not be able to have a double income. Does he believe that they should be allowed to accept an income from articles about the work of their Committees? I think that the answer may be implicit in what he has said, and I do not expect him to answer me now. He has undertaken that he will give advice to Select Committee Chairmen, and I hope that he will consider the matter before he and the House of Commons Commission compile that advice.
The salary involved is not princely like a Minister's salary. It is less than half what a Parliamentary Private Secretary gets. In terms of career structure, being a Select Committee Chairman is a start, but it is not on the same track as a PPS. I shall say why that is doubly unfair.
Most hon. Members want to have experience as a Minister. Any hon. Member who has carried out the duties of such a post will recognise the privilege of being able to do something with politics. As my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) and other hon. Members have pointed out, it seems wrong that there is a tendency for those, such as myself, who have enjoyed the enormous privilege of being a Minister to step down from the preferred track and immediately or relatively quickly switch across to the other track, thereby excluding those who have never had ministerial experience.
Andrew Mackinlay: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for saying that. I did not wish to interrupt his flow because I totally agree with him. Equally, it should at least be a convention in the House that, if a person accepts the chairmanship of a Select Committee, he or she will not accept an offer from a Prime Minister to become a junior Minister in the lifetime of that Parliament. What happens is that the Prime Minister phones up and says, "Would you like to be Under-
Secretary of State for paperclips and statues?" and they say, "Yes", and ditch the Select Committee pretty damn quick. That is the great tragedy.
Mr. Williams: Part of the trouble is that most hon. Members are in politics not just to chair Committees, with respect. We chair Committees because we feel that it is a job that needs doing, and some of us get a perverse sort of kick out of doing it. Very few people who are elected to the House do not have some ministerial ambition, and there is nothing wrong with that ambition. The chairmanship route is limited in the time that the post can be occupied. A ministerial post is only limited by the good will of the Prime Minister of the day. Many people carry on for 10 or 15 years in government; others never have the good fortune to experience that. So it is important that the chairmanships that are on offer should not be given as compensation to those who have experienced ministerial office, as they have already had a Minister's salary and the redundancy pay that they get as a Minister.
May I put in a bid to the Minister in support of what various hon. Members have said? Other hon. Members do jobs that are singularly unrewarding. I am enjoying my job as Chairman of the Liaison Committee, but frankly, I can think of nothing more horrendous that being condemned to chair Standing Committees. Many Members enjoy that very much, but they give up an enormous amount of time. They also lose a lot of political opportunity to spend their time in more politically advantageous activities. So I ask the Minister—again, he need not make any firm commitment—to discuss with the Leader of the House the possibility of setting up a similar review for the Chairmen's Panel to find out whether those Chairmen should also be included in some way. I leave that open, but my inclination is that they should be included and an independent review would at least be advantageous.
Of course I support the proposition before the House, but my final point is that, if anything, the role of Select Committees must become more important, or they will begin to wither. Hutton has presented Parliament and the Government with a clear choice. We must not fail to get our act together properly in allowing Select Committees to investigate the Executive by sorting out which witnesses they can call and what papers that they can demand, after the gulf that has been demonstrated by Hutton in what has been available to the Foreign Affairs Committee compared with what is being made available to the external inquiry.
If we do not grasp the nettle now and revisit the Osmotherley rules, which have been referred to, I suspect that more and more pressure will come from the public to take significant inquiries outside the control of the House and put them into more judicial hands. That would not be advantageous for democracy. We are here to investigate and interrogate the Executive, but the Executive have to understand that that imposes duties on them to be as co-operative as possible with the Committees.
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