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Mr. Grieve : I am sorry that the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris) is dissatisfied with the way in which the Bill has been amended in relation to public lavatories. This matter took up quite a lot of time in Committee and has obviously done so in the House of Lords as well. I am grateful to the Government for accepting the Lords amendment, which they amended further themselves. We have arrived at a sensible outcome, and I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is dissatisfied with it. The simple position is that public lavatories are not a proper place for sexual activity—full stop. It does not matter whether somebody notices what is going on or not; in reality, it is most unlikely that any prosecution will be brought unless somebody complains about the state the public lavatory has got into as a result of improper use. The hon. Gentleman should stop worrying about this matter and accept that the Bill as drafted is perfectly sensible.
I turn briefly to the Government amendments in this group, which I welcome. The Minister has taken on board all the points made in Committee, including that relating to uncles and nephews and the definition of prohibited relationships; I am extremely grateful for that. I particularly welcome the fact that, as a result of the debate in Committee, the word "structure" has been removed from clause 69 and replaced with "place". That sensible amendment will provide a greater degree of protection from the activities of voyeurs for those who
are legitimately in an enclosed space, and have no reason to believe that they will be seen. I am grateful to the Minister for those amendments.
Sandra Gidley: I rise to speak to amendment No. 147, which is a slightly tongue-in-cheek attempt to show that clause 66 as it stands is flawed. As my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris) pointed out, we are very hung up about the particular environment of a public lavatory. There are other places, such as showers on camp sites, to which the public have access, but apparently there is no problem with such structures: the door can be closed and there is no problem with people engaging in any sort of sexual activity.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon, in that the Government seem to want to single out toilets, for a reason that I cannot quite understand. I agree with those who say that public toilets are not the place to have sex—they should be used for the purpose for which they are designed—but the subtext of some of our debates in Committee suggests that this issue involves discrimination against gay men. I do not want to pass legislation that discriminates in any way, but I must admit that I am struggling to understand that argument. Perhaps that is because I am not a gay man, but I cannot see in what way the provision discriminates, given that it applies to heterosexual sex in toilets, as well as to gay sex.
Mr. Bryant: I am sorry that the hon. Lady entices me to my feet. I had resolved not to say any more on this matter, having failed dismally to persuade the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) of my argument in Committee; indeed, I note that the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris) has done just about as well as me in that regard. The history is that the police have spent vast amounts of time and energy deliberately trying to catch men having sex with men in gentlemen's toilets, and the enormous worry exists in the gay community that the police will start doing that again, because we will have expressly decided to retain this element of the legislation. Many police forces have extremely enlightened views, but as we have discovered in the past few weeks, some police forces and officers do not. It is wholly right to seek to prevent the misdemeanours referred to, but the worry is that the provision is discriminatory.
Sandra Gidley: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Much of what is said on this issue is based strongly on historical argument and expressed in that context, but I would contend that we live in an ever more accepting society. There are some who have a complete abhorrence of any sex other than heterosexual sex in the missionary position, but in general society is much more tolerant, particularly young people.
I have to question the slightly muddled thinking, as it could be regarded, of my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon. He said on one occasion that the public have a greater abhorrence of seeing a gay couple speaking—[Hon. Members: "Kissing."] Sorry, I meant kissing, not speaking; things have not got that bad. He said that the public have a greater abhorrence
of a gay couple kissing than of a heterosexual couple kissing at a similar stage in a relationship. However, he then said that an element of distress, alarm or offence should be involved when an offence is committed. What happens if even minor forms of sexual activity are included? As we know from discussions of another matter, kissing is sexual activity. People might be very shocked to see two gay men kissing in a public toilet, but they may not be shocked to see a heterosexual couple doing so.
Dr. Harris: My point is that, even if we accepted the new clause, sadly, because of public attitudes, there would still be a low threshold in terms of complaints made against men having sex in public. However, the existing clause provides no threshold whatsoever. It is not as if the new clause would not allow those who are offended—we must accept that people are offended by whatever offends them—to make a complaint. But one need not reach that threshold for sex in public lavatories, whereas the existing public order offence—which might catch such behaviour in a park, or on a bus or train—does require that someone be distressed and alarmed. In other words, we are writing a disproportionate level of offence into law, even despite public attitudes.
Sandra Gidley: I am not sure that I am any the wiser for that intervention.
Amendment No. 147 is intended to point out a slight anomaly whereby certain activities that are just as offensive, in some eyes, are not covered by the clause as drafted. My hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon sought to go further, but his new clause does not achieve quite what he intends. I support his comments on the public order offence; indeed, initially, we wanted to develop our thinking on the treatment of this offence in that way. It is an offence, but I hope—and I seek reassurance from the Minister and others—that undue weight will not be placed on using the clause as a means of persecuting people or going on a witch hunt. That may not be quite the right term, but it is the only one that I can think of without a double meaning.
To sum up, clause 66 is flawed. I would welcome hearing the Government's opinion on what has been said, but I do not think, sadly, that new clause 10 quite takes us to where we should be either.
Mrs. Brooke: I want to say briefly that I welcome Government amendment No. 85, which came out of an excellent debate. I did not participate much in it myself, but it was fascinating to listen to it and it provides a good example of some of the good work that was done in Committee.
On the present subject of debate, which has taken up considerable time, I want to repeat some of the points that we made in Committee. We do not feel that the Government amendment of the time, which is now clause 66, is appropriate for the Sexual Offences Bill. Our point was that it was an interim measure, but in the fullness of time when appropriate legislation came along—we acknowledged that it could not be attached to the Criminal Justice Bill—we wanted there to be a new public order offence, as recommended in "Setting the Boundaries". We do not want to lose sight of that. It is how we believe that matters should be progressed. As
I mentioned in Committee, it would have been helpful if the phrase "distress, alarm or offence" was in the clause, because it would have made it easier to move this forward as a public order offence in the future.I want to put those comments on record. We have heard some reassuring words from the Minister to the effect that there remains the possibility of inserting amendments into other legislation. I hope that this is not the end of the story—[Interruption.] I do not want much more talk, but suitable action on a public order offence in the future.
Paul Goggins: Unlike the hon. Lady, I hope that this is the end of the issue.
I begin by responding to the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris). As he made a powerful and knowledgeable speech, I thought that he would have made an interesting member of the Committee. If nothing else, we could have observed his developing relationship with his hon. Friend the Member for Romsey (Sandra Gidley), who asked some searching questions. I shall also deal with amendment No. 147, which would add sexual activity in shower cubicles to the existing clause 66.
Hon. Members who have followed the debate here and in the other place will be aware of the history behind this offence. We believe that existing legislation—public order Acts and provisions on outraging public decency—are already capable of covering sexual activity in public. However, we have accepted the case for a specific offence of sexual activity in a public lavatory, in acknowledgment of particular public concerns, which have been reflected in debate and in correspondence. I have to say to the hon. Member for Romsey that similar concerns have not been raised about sex in shower cubicles.
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