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Mrs. Claire Curtis-Thomas (Crosby): I support my hon. Friend's observations. I greatly welcome the introduction of this new offence. It is something that preoccupies quite a number of my constituents, because we have a plethora of seaside gardens that have lavatories, which, unfortunately, have attracted a considerable amount of sexual activity of the sort that we have heard discussed this evening. In common with my hon. Friend, I have never received any correspondence about sex in the shower. When I receive the same sort of mailbag on that as I do on sex in the toilet, it might become an issue. For the moment, I am delighted that we are carrying this measure forward: it will bring much relief to many offended people in my constituency.
8.15 pm
Paul Goggins: I am delighted to hear that my hon. Friend is pleased with this particular clause. Those who might engage in sex in shower cubicles may be caught by existing legislation, which could cover that particular instance.
The new clause proposed by the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon does not recognise that we are making an important distinction—
Sandra Gidley: If the offence of having sex in a shower cubicle is covered by existing legislation, why is the parallel offence of having sex in a public toilet not so covered?
Paul Goggins: That is the whole point, and we covered it extensively in Committee. We believe that sex in toilets is already covered, but we are making the point of explicitly making it a separate offence. That has always been clear and we accept it. Indeed, the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mrs. Curtis-Thomas) are delighted by it.
Paul Goggins: I am not going to give way again, as I am conscious of the time and of the fact that we have much else to debate. Those who spoke to the various amendments have received a fair hearing in the House.
As I was saying, new clause 10 does not recognise that we are making an important distinction between sexual activity in toilets and sexual activity in public generally. We are seeking to outlaw all sexual activity in public toilets, but sexual activity in public per se is not a crime unless it causes harassment, alarm, distress or offence. The Government believe that sexual activity in public toilets is wholly inappropriate. On the other hand, if a couple take care to find an isolated area where they may reasonably expect to be unobserved in order to engage in sexual activity, we would not wish to criminalise them. However, we do wish to make it absolutely clear that sexual activity in public toilets is wrong. We do not wish to allow offenders to argue that they did not expect someone else to see or hear them because it was late at night, or to question whether an unfortunate witness was really distressed by their activities.
Concerns have been raised in the debate tonight—and movingly in Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Mr. Bryant), who may not have won the day but made a powerful case—that the provisions could become a modern way of targeting the gay community. I said to my hon. Friend in Committee and repeat it now that in cultural terms we live in a very different age, frankly, than when homosexuals were pursued by the police in public toilets. I recall a time when the gay community, or individual homosexual men, were targeted in public toilets in Manchester. Yet within a mile of those toilets today, there is the gay village, which shows that the whole culture has changed.
I must make it plain to the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon that the police have an obligation to prosecute the law equally. I certainly undertake to monitor the impact of the legislation to ensure that it is implemented fairly and that gay men or any other group are not singled out in any particular way. If there is any question of people being blackmailed, blackmail is an offence, which should be dealt with in the appropriate way. I therefore resist the new clause and associated amendments.
I shall not detain the House for long in dealing with the Government amendments. The hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) has acknowledged the
improvements that we have made. We concluded that there was no justification for treating categories of relatives any differently, so we tabled Government amendments Nos. 50 and 51 to bring relationships between aunts and uncles and their blood nephews and nieces within the scope of the offences in the Bill.Finally, I should like to deal with the offence of voyeurism. As the hon. Member for Mid-Dorset and North Poole (Mrs. Brooke) said, we had a very good debate in Committee, although she acknowledged that she was a voyeur rather than a participant in it. These Government amendments remove the reference to "structure" from the definition in clause 69 of a private act for the purposes of the voyeurism offence. I was certainly persuaded by the strength of the argument put forward by members of the Committee about the scope of the offence. As drafted, the definition of a private act covers someone being undressed, in their underwear, using the toilet or engaging in a sexual act of a type not normally done in public when in a structure in which they might reasonably expect privacy. In Committee, we discussed the scope of the offence, and whether it should protect those not only in a structure that affords privacy, but in other places or spaces where privacy might reasonably have been expected.
Government amendment No. 85 removes the term "structure" in this context and replaces it with "place". I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Redcar (Vera Baird), because she made that clear and simple suggestion in Committee. The amendment will widen the scope of the offence to protect someone engaging in a private act in any place where they could reasonably expect privacy. It will be for the court to determine whether or not their expectation of privacy was reasonable. Government amendment No. 86 is simply a minor consequential drafting amendment ensuring that the definition of "structure" remains in force to cover the term as it is used in clause 68. I urge the House to accept these amendments and I hope that the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon will withdraw his new clause.
Dr. Evan Harris: It is disappointing that the Minister would not engage in formal debate on this important issue by taking interventions. I would have asked him two questions. First, he says that he wants to make sex in public lavatories a particular offence because of the number of complaints from the public, but why must we always give in to public opinion when the impact will be discriminatory? That was the justification used for years of discriminatory sex laws. Secondly, why is the Minister concerned only with public lavatories? Does he not think that no-go areas on Clapham common and Hampstead heath and in other parks are worth reclaiming for the public for the same reason? If this new offence is good enough for public lavatories, it should be good enough for other areas.
The Minister said that the police have a duty to prosecute the law equally. I agree, but the law is not equal in this instance. The hon. Gentleman would not
take an intervention on the point, but it is clear that the standard of complaint required for sex outside public lavatories, which can take place between men and women and not just between men, has a higher threshold—the need for someone to be distressed or alarmed by it—than sex in public lavatories. That means that convictions will be easier to obtain and even with an equal prosecution of the law there will be a disproportionate effect. The law will no longer be equal in terms of the defence available. The Minister has failed to deal with that point and has therefore spoilt what would otherwise be a useful Bill, for me and for many people outside the House who are concerned about the history of discrimination in this area.I am grateful to my Front-Bench colleagues for recognising that clause 66 is unsatisfactory. I recognise that they have a responsibility to deal with the best possible outcome at this point rather than with the best outcome possible, but I maintain that in years to come the Bill will have a disproportionate effect. The Government, and those who have acquiesced to the Bill, have created an inconsistency and have failed to take the action in other areas of the law that would be necessary for a widely based law. The Government need only look at the proposals in their own White Paper to see that they have made a U-turn and conceded an unreasonable argument from the official Opposition and Members of the House of Lords. Time will show that it will lead to unjustified discrimination.
I would not win a vote on the issue and I shall not divide the House, but I wished to make it clear that if prosecutions are disproportionate—and entrapment and blackmail ensue—the Minister had the opportunity to take a fairer approach that applied to people of all sexualities. Having said that, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Mrs. Brooke: I beg to move amendment No. 187, in page 3, line 15 [Clause 4], at end insert—
'(c) a person aged below 18 years at the time of the offence shall be assessed by a multidisciplinary team and be eligible for treatment, even if he does not subsequently become subject to notification requirements.'.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment No. 116, in page 5, line 34 [Clause 13], leave out '9' and insert '10'.
Amendment No. 144, in page 5, line 34 [Clause 13], leave out '9 to' and insert '11 and'.
Amendment No. 117, in page 5, line 34 [Clause 13], at end insert—
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