| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Hammond: Before I deal with the amendments moved by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), I shall say a few words about Lords amendment No. 2. It is an avoidance-of-doubt provision, and it is bizarre to see it inserted in a Bill such as this. I can see whence the hon. Gentleman drew his inspiration.
When the Minister responds to the debate, there are some matters that I hope that he will clarify. Although amendment No. 2 makes it clear that mediation, conciliation and arbitration over the implementation processes for the June 2003 agreement are possible, it does not preclude the possibility that the Secretary of State may use his powers under the Bill to negate the outcome. That renders amendment No. 2 superfluous. If it was inserted to send an emollient message, I hope that the Minister will make it clear that it is a matter of tone rather than substance.
I am not a lawyer, but I am astonished that the Bill refers to a specific trade union by name. That raises the question of hybridity. I always thought that hybridity was created when a particular individual interest was dealt with discriminatorily by a Bill. I should be grateful for an explanation from the Minister of why that is not the case with this Bill.
The Bill is time limited, unusual and untidy, but that does not compel the Opposition to vote against it. The use by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington of amendments to amendment No. 2 is slightly artificial as a way of reopening the debate on amendment No. 3 in the Grand Committee stage in the House of Lords, but it is interesting. Opposition Members in the Commons attacked the Bill for being toothless, as it contains no sanctions against the union. The hon. Gentleman, and his colleagues in the other place, have raised the suspicion that the Bill may contain some hidden teeth, and that although it provides no power to impose a strike ban, it presents the possibility that a trade union that takes industrial action could be exposed to actions in tort.
2.45 pm
The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington noted that there were complex debates in the other place about the history of the law in this area. There was a clear ministerial statement that the Government's advice was that the Bill does not undermine the immunity of a trade union to take action in the circumstances outlined. The Opposition believe that the Bill needs to be more balanced in its treatment of employers and unions. I am prepared to accept the presumably well qualified advice that the Government have received, but it would not seem helpful to undermine the Bill's lack of teeth by inserting the sort of amendment proposed by the hon. Gentleman.
To use a slightly unfortunate phrase, the firefighters' dispute has flared up again recently. Anything that reduces the FBU's appetite for conflict is helpful, and likely to benefit public safety. I understand the suspicion felt by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington, because if the amendments are redundant, the entire Bill is redundant too, because it contains no way of imposing the Secretary of State's directions on the employees. It has no sanctions in the form of a strike ban or exposure to action in tort, as the Government have confirmed. It does not allow the Secretary of State to do anything that the employers cannot do. The employers can impose terms and conditions unilaterally, move equipment about or dispose of premises. By abolishing section 19 of the Fire Services Act 1947 and recentralising the procedure, the Bill also goes against the thrust of Government policy.
As drafted, the Bill is aimed not at the unions and employees, but at the employers. Its aim is to prevent the possibility that a recalcitrant employer will collaborate with the unions to avoid carrying out the modernisation process that the Government envisage. It allows the Government to pull the strings from the wings, without stepping into the limelight, as they can threaten to use the powers granted by the Bill. The employers are the only bodies to be placed under a direct obligation by the Bill.
The situation that we face now, however, in November 2003, is exactly the one that we feared. It is one that the Government should have foreseen. A settlement was reached early in the summer, and the employers negotiated the details with the unions. But now, the unions are suggesting—quite scurrilously—that the detailed terms of the employers' offer somehow breach the terms of the settlement made in June. One of the senior labour negotiators on the joint negotiating committee has described that charge as dishonourable.
Far from the employers being recalcitrant, the union executive, under pressure from the hard-liners within the union, is seeking to renege on the commitments that it made in June, and by contrast the employers, the targets of the Bill, are standing firm, having made what I think the Minister would agree is a generous and conciliatory offer—to pay half the settlement now unconditionally, and the remainder once the conditions have been implemented.
Mr. Edward Davey: I agree with the hon. Gentleman about that. Will he also make it clear that the extra 3.5 per cent. in stage 2 of the payment will be backdated to 5 November, so no union member would lose a single penny—
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. We are discussing the amendment rather than the terms of the offer.
Mr. Hammond: That is right, Madam Deputy Speaker; none the less, it might be helpful to confirm that what the hon. Gentleman said is true.
The question is whether the Government will now back the employers to stand firm so that the union executive, in turn, is minded to stand firm against the hard-liners in the union who are trying to undermine the settlement of the dispute.
The Government have always painted the Bill as a fall-back and a last resort, so I was a little surprised to hear the Minister, in his opening remarks today, suggest that although he very much hoped that that would be the case, it might not now be possible not to use the powers. That somewhat alarmed me. Perhaps the Minister can tell us something about the contingency arrangements that the Government are putting in place—
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I really must ask the hon. Gentleman to address his remarks to the words of the amendment.
Mr. Hammond: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I think that I have largely covered the issues in the amendment. We said during the Bill's previous Commons stages that we would support a Bill as a temporary measure, if it had teeth. The Bill as drafted has teeth in relation to the employers; the Opposition's concern is that it has no teeth in relation to the employees. The amendment would provide what the hon. Gentleman sees as at least a set of gums, if not teeth, in relation to the unions. However, in the context of the currently revived dispute, it would not be helpful to send the union any signal that would entrench the position that its executive now appears to be taking up.
For the reasons that I have explained, therefore, if the hon. Gentleman presses his amendment to a Division we will not be able to support him in that endeavour.
Angela Watkinson (Upminster): I shall speak briefly to Lords amendment No. 2, the new clause that is to be inserted after clause 1. I hope that you will not rule me out of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, if my comments are inappropriate, because I want to highlight the importance of the word "interpretation". From my recent discussions with firefighters, I know that the two sides are in negotiations, but there are concerns about the interpretation of what has been agreed and what remains to be agreed.
As we know, there is a staged pay award, but it depends on compliance with—
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I am sorry, but I must remind the hon. Lady of what I have said from the Chair before: comment must be germane to the amendments under discussion rather than to the offer or anything to do with it.
Mr. Hammond: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Would I not be correct in thinking that Lords amendment No. 2 itself is part of the group, so comments dealing with "mediation, conciliation or arbitration" in connection with the implementation of the 2003 agreement would be in order?
Madam Deputy Speaker: What I am trying to establish is that the amendment has nothing whatever to do with the pay offer. The words in the amendment, and the interpretation of those, are about
- "the possibility of . . . mediation, conciliation or arbitration".
- "the interpretation of the June 2003 agreement"
Madam Deputy Speaker: Yes, indeed. That is my ruling.
Angela Watkinson: In that case, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall have to draw my remarks to an abrupt conclusion.
Mr. Raynsford: There have been three contributions in the debate, from my hon. Friends the Members for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley) and for Hendon (Mr. Dismore), about the issue raised by Lord Wedderburn in another place, which I will tackle in a moment. The other main contribution—I am sorry that the hon. Member for Upminster (Angela Watkinson) was not able to cover the ground that she wanted to cover—was made by the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), who asked a number of questions about Lords amendment No. 2 and the Government's intentions in relation to the Bill.
Without straying into areas into which I cannot and will not stray, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the purpose of the Bill remains exactly as it was when we first introduced it. It is, as he says, a long-stop. We hope that we shall not have to use it, but as is clear from the recent discussions, there cannot be absolute certainty that the dispute will not flare up again. The Bill was intended to provide the Secretary of State with the ability to draw a line underneath what has been, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington said, a long and bitter dispute, to enable the fire service to look forward.
As for hybridity, the reference to the Fire Brigades Union in Lords amendment No. 2 is a part of a description defining which agreement of June 2003 is being referred to. It in no way changes the rights and obligations of the FBU or the employers, so the concerns of the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge about hybridity do not arise.
The amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington return to an issue discussed at great length more than once in another place—the impact of the Bill on the protection offered by the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 to unions representing staff, in this case the staff of the fire and rescue service.
I shall again put on record what has been said repeatedly, particularly in another place, but also by members of the Government: the Bill does not jeopardise or alter the firefighters' or their union's protection or immunity under that Act. It is not about altering the framework of trade union law; it is simply about ensuring that if we need them, we have the powers to prevent the dispute, which I am afraid is still current, from affecting public safety.
The two amendments take different approaches to that issue. Amendment (a) would provide that nothing in the Bill could enable an action in tort—in layman's language, that is an action under which someone has the right to sue—solely because of the contravention of a statutory duty imposed by an order under the Bill. The last part of the amendment appears to limit its effect to orders that would affect the possibility of mediation, conciliation or arbitration.
I understand why my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington tabled that amendment, but it would greatly restrict the impact of the provision, and I cannot imagine an order that would have that effect. Certainly, it is no part of our thinking that we might make an order about pay, hours of work or the use of appliances that would, or could, affect the possibility of mediation in any way. Therefore if the amendment really is limited to such orders, it would have no practical effect.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |