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Paul Goggins: I beg to move, That this House disagrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Lords amendment No. 115 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendment (a) to words restored; Lords amendment No. 116 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 117 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 118 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 119 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 120 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 121 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 122 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 123 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 124 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendment (a) to words restored; Lords amendment No. 125 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 126 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendment (a) to words restored; Lords amendment No. 127 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 128 and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 129 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendments (a) to (e) to words restored; Lords amendment No. 130 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendments (a) to (d) to words restored; Lords amendment No. 131and the Government motion to disagree thereto; Lords amendment No. 132 and the Government motion to disagree thereto, Government amendment (a) to words restored; Lords amendments Nos. 133 to 136.
Paul Goggins: We now come to the part of the Bill that deals with the admissibility of evidence, specifically evidence of bad character and hearsay evidence. These are highly important provisions.
Trials should be a search for the truth and the rules of evidence should help to ensure that that is the case. The present law in both of those areas has, however, been
roundly criticised—from the royal commission on criminal justice in 1993 to the Law Commission's reports in 1997 and 2001 and Lord Justice Auld's review of the criminal courts. There is a wide consensus in favour of reform.6 pm
Mr. Kidney: My hon. Friend mentions the Law Commission. The Lords amendment on bad character would import wholesale the Law Commission's draft legislation on bad character, which seeks to clarify and modernise the law. It is authoritative because it is based on the Law Commission's investigation, report and draft Bill. Why does my hon. Friend not just take what he has got and accept the Lords amendment?
Paul Goggins: I shall explain why we are not doing that. We give credit to the Law Commission for the work that it has done, but argue that we want to go further than it has recommended. I hope that during the next few minutes I shall be able to apprise my hon. Friend of why we want to go further than the Law Commission's initial recommendations.
This part of the Bill is intended to provide a new statutory framework for the admission of those two types of evidence. Amendments adopted in the other place would, however, reduce the efficacy of the reform that the Government propose. I shall deal first with the evidence of bad character. Amendments adopted by the other place would replace the Government's proposals with almost exactly the scheme drafted by the Law Commission, as my hon. Friend pointed out. We agree with much in that scheme. As my noble Friend the Minister of State made clear in the other place, the Government's proposals are based on the Law Commission's work and adopt many of its recommendations. However, we do not believe that those go far enough in rebalancing the system to ensure that the rules promote the admission of relevant evidence, subject, of course, to considerations of fairness. Without such rebalancing, courts and juries will continue to have withheld from them important evidence that could give them the full picture of a particular case.
In our view, a different approach is required—one of inclusion, which makes it clear that relevant evidence is admissible. It will of course be for the prosecution to demonstrate in the course of proceedings how the evidence relates to the particular case.
Mr. Grieve: Let us take just one example: previous convictions. It is accepted—I think that the Government would accept this—that if someone has a previous conviction, that in itself cannot show that they are guilty of anything, unless there is a link between the previous conviction and the crime for which they are currently being tried. That is the classic example that shows why such evidence should be excluded unless there is a reason to include it—not the other way around. That is what the Law Commission wanted to do, but for some reason the Government do not want to do that.
Paul Goggins: It is because we are persuaded of the need for an inclusive approach. We are making the
presumption that that kind of information is admissible as evidence. Of course, the defence has the opportunity to argue that such evidence is not relevant, and it could argue that it was more prejudicial than probative in a particular case, so there are safeguards in place—but the information referred to by the hon. Gentleman in his example may be relevant in a particular case.We have always said that we will listen to constructive suggestions for change to ensure that our proposals are cast in the best possible form. We are aware that a number of concerns have been expressed over the way in which the Bill's scheme will work in practice and we are prepared to make improvements to reflect those. I am therefore moving several amendments to make three changes. The first concerns the definition of evidence of bad character. The definition that the Government originally proposed was that recommended by the Law Commission, but concern was expressed that that was too vague and would enable the admission of evidence that was too remote. We recognise that it is important to be as clear and precise as possible, so we have redrafted the definition to tighten the wording while maintaining a fairly wide ambit.
The second change is to ensure that the defendant has clear notice of the prosecution's intention to rely on evidence of his bad character. That reflects a concern that a more inclusionary approach would lead to the admission of evidence where it was not appropriate or safe for it to be heard. That is not our intention. We believe that the system needs to be rebalanced to ensure that relevant evidence is admitted unless good reason is shown for excluding it, but we recognise that there must be a clear opportunity for a defendant to apply to exclude the evidence and for that issue to be decided by the court. That will be facilitated by having a formal requirement of notice.
The third change relates to the admissibility of juvenile convictions in adult proceedings. At present, no mention may be made of those convictions. That is too restrictive an approach and our proposals will lift that absolute prohibition, making such evidence admissible subject to the general scheme of the Bill. Concern has been expressed that that goes too far, that a person's record at that age will not have the relevance of later offending, and that particular considerations apply in the context of juvenile offending. We have some sympathy with the idea that such admission should take place on a more restricted basis, so we propose that those convictions should be admissible only where the interests of justice specifically require it. We intend that test to exclude a sporadic record for minor offences while ensuring that continual or persistent offending or convictions for very serious offences are capable of admission.
Hon. Members will notice that there are a number of other amendments in the name of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
Mr. Hogg: To what extent has the Minister addressed the following issue? He will understand that under existing law, a defendant will often refrain from attacking the character of a Crown witness for fear of his own character being disclosed. Under the Government's proposals, the presumption, broadly speaking, seems to
be that the bad character of the defendant can be disclosed in any event. That being so, the restraint that operates at present on defendants not to attack the character of Crown witnesses will disappear.
Paul Goggins: I am becoming more familiar with some of those issues by the hour. I understand that the right hon. and learned Gentleman refers to "the shield". We believe that the shield should not be available with impunity to the defendant, and that he should not be allowed to make assertions without some accountability and responsibility for them.
Mr. Denham: On the question of bad character, does my hon. Friend agree that of all the provisions in the Bill that have caused concern—I share many of those concerns—this is where the risk of something going wrong is probably greatest, in terms of the import of particular evidence being misunderstood by the jury in the course of the trial? The case for moving in this direction is good, but how do the Government propose to examine how the law will work in operation to see whether any of the concerns that have been expressed are justified or whether it is working well?
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