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Tom Levitt (High Peak): I intervened earlier to point out how a Liberal Democrat Member was supporting foundation hospitals in her locality but voting against them tonight. I do not want to criticise her or to make political capital out of that, but she was right to support foundation status for the Stepping Hill hospital in Stockport. It is an up to three star hospital that requires two new operating theatres in short shrift. It is a hospital that needs to replace two more of its existing theatres within three or four years. Should that hospital have the right to decide when, where and how it replaces its operating theatres, or should it be a small fish in the big pool of Greater Manchester, never rising to the top and never being able to secure the operating theatres that it requires?

19 Nov 2003 : Column 917

On behalf of the people of Stockport and High Peak, I want Stepping Hill hospital to be able to make its decisions about the services that it provides. The decisions on operating theatres would not be taking resources away from other hospitals and other trusts.

Mr. George Stevenson (Stoke-on-Trent, South): Has my hon. Friend given any consideration to the effect that his argument would have on North Staffordshire hospital trust and not the foundation hospital?

Tom Levitt: I grew up in north Staffordshire and I had treatment in north Staffordshire hospitals, and I sympathise with my hon. Friend. I am explaining why no other hospitals will suffer because of my local hospital getting extra facilities.

The hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Mr. Davies) explained how he did not think that the model worked. He is living in the past. As long as there is more money going into the health service, conditions will not worsen in non-foundation hospitals. He is right in his analysis if there are cuts in the health service, as there were under Tory Governments in the past and as there would be under future Tory Governments. That is when his model would work.

I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) that there are plenty of Vauxhall voters on the Government Benches. We have been listening to her extremely carefully.

Tony Baldry (Banbury): In their own interests, Labour Members should reflect on whether today will be their NHS poll tax. I shall explain why.

In Oxfordshire, we have the Oxford Radcliffe NHS trust, which is a low starred trust. That is through no fault of the staff, the doctors or members of trade unions who work there. There are many structural reasons involving the bringing together of hospital sites and the Oxford teaching hospital. However, the hospital produces some very good medicine. It is a no-star trust, so it has little chance of becoming a foundation hospital. That is exactly the sort of hospital that should receive help from the Government, yet it will not.

The Nuffield Orthopaedic Centre up the road has the highest star rating and will be in the first wave of hospitals to get foundation status. Unto them that have will be given, and from those that have not will be taken away even that which they have. Nurses working at the Nuffield Orthopaedic Centre in one part of Oxford will be paid more than nurses working in the Oxford Radcliffe Hospitals NHS trust. Where is the equity in that? Where is the national health service in all that? The measure is a totally unfair way of proceeding. If Labour Members believe that that—

Mr. Kevan Jones (North Durham): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Tony Baldry: No, I am short of time.

19 Nov 2003 : Column 918

If Labour Members believe that that is the way forward for the national health service, they will seriously regret that they put part 1 into legislation, if that is what they choose to do.

Dr. Richard Taylor (Wyre Forest): As somebody who has worked in the NHS for rather a long time, I am dedicated to it as a service for the patient. I agree that it is vital to decentralise control, but the proposal is the wrong way of decentralising services. It is wrong because it drives a wedge between primary and secondary care, and between hospitals, at exactly the time when the Government are looking for partnerships, collaboration and networking. It is ill thought out because of the lack of patient forums, at exactly the time when the Government are trying to improve patient and public involvement in health. I do not believe that the members of boards of governors of foundation trusts will be entirely independent of their executives.

There is an alternative way. One has only to go back 17 of the 18 re-organisations that we have had in the past 20 years, to local district health authorities, which had locally elected members in the form of councillors, representatives of local bodies, a locally elected consultant and a locally elected GP, to see that they worked. With the resource management initiative that was abolished almost as soon as it was drawn up, they would have produced an efficient service. Even now, the Commission for Healthcare Audit and Inspection would have been able to prove that those organisations were living within their means or were underfunded.

I would like us to forget about foundation trusts and consider other reforms while there is still time. A vote against the Government is not a vote against decentralisation; it is a vote against the wrong sort of decentralisation.

Mr. Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe): I hope I have a chance to remind the Secretary of State, who appeared to believe the reply that he gave to my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) about the effect of the financing of foundation hospitals on other hospitals, that that was not the view of his predecessor. When foundation hospitals were proposed, it was not the intention to cap capital spending. Borrowing was to be enlarged. It was the Treasury that insisted on a cap. Why does the Secretary of State think the Treasury insisted on putting a cap on capital spending, if there is now unlimited funding, no choices to be made, and all can have the investment that they wish? It was the Treasury that insisted that capital investment in foundation hospitals would be at the expense of other hospitals. He cannot seriously deny with a straight face, even at this hour of night, that he has lost that argument and several others as well with those in another place.

2 am

Dr. John Reid: I have a considerable respect for the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but there is one significant difference between the position that he faced and the position that we face now, which is that there is an increase in investment—[Interruption.] Opposition Members may not like it, but the difference between the

19 Nov 2003 : Column 919

Tory Government cutting the capital investment envelope and a 7.4 per cent. real-terms increase for five years means that every feasible application for capital requirements, even counted against the envelope, can be met under the Labour Government, while they were consistently refused under the cuts of the Tory Government. That is the point.

Mr. Clarke: Then will the Secretary of State explain why the Treasury insisted on a cap?

Dr. Reid: The Treasury insisted not on a cap, but that any borrowing made by the foundation trust counted towards the general envelope. [Interruption.] That is not—[Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. The House must listen to the Secretary of State.

Dr. Reid: That is not an individual cap for a hospital; it is—[Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I remind the House that these are serious matters, and they must be dealt with accordingly. May I also remind the Secretary of State that he is intervening?

Dr. Reid: My intervention would be briefer if Opposition Members were prepared to accept the answer for which they have constantly asked. There is not an individual cap on hospitals, foundation trusts or otherwise—

It being one hour after the commencement of consideration, Mr. Deputy Speaker put the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].

Question put, That this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in the said amendment:—

The House divided: Ayes 290, Noes 249.

Division No. 388
[2:02 am


Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allen, Graham
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Banks, Tony
Barron, rh Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Bell, Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Joe (Bootle)
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, rh David
Boateng, rh Paul
Borrow, David
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brown, rh Gordon (Dunfermline E)
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burnham, Andy
Byers, rh Stephen
Caborn, rh Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Colman, Tony
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cooper, Yvette
Cousins, Jim
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Darling, rh Alistair
David, Wayne
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Denham, rh John
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dismore, Andrew
Donohoe, Brian H.
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drew, David (Stroud)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Follett, Barbara
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Foulkes, rh George
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Healey, John
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hodge, Margaret
Hoon, rh Geoffrey
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Ingram, rh Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Ann (Brentford)
Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Love, Andrew
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Luke, Iain (Dundee E)
Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McCartney, rh Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
MacDougall, John
McFall, John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mallaber, Judy
Mandelson, rh Peter
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Martlew, Eric
Merron, Gillian
Milburn, rh Alan
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moran, Margaret
Morley, Elliot
Morris, rh Estelle
Mountford, Kali
Mullin, Chris
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Organ, Diana
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris (Gravesham)
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prescott, rh John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purnell, James
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Reid, rh Dr. John (Hamilton N & Bellshill)
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Ryan, Joan (Enfield N)
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mohammad
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
Singh, Marsha
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh John
Squire, Rachel
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Ward, Claire
Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Wills, Michael
Wilson, Brian
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Wray, James (Glasgow Baillieston)
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wright, Tony (Cannock)

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Fraser Kemp and
Mr. Jim Murphy


Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Allan, Richard
Amess, David
Ancram, rh Michael
Arbuthnot, rh James
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Bacon, Richard
Baker, Norman
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Barnes, Harry
Baron, John (Billericay)
Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)
Beith, rh A. J.
Bellingham, Henry
Bennett, Andrew
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blunt, Crispin
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW Surrey)
Brady, Graham
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Brazier, Julian
Breed, Colin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Bruce, Malcolm
Burgon, Colin
Burnett, John
Burns, Simon
Burstow, Paul
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, John
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Cameron, David
Campbell, rh Menzies (NE Fife)
Carmichael, Alistair
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chidgey, David
Chope, Christopher
Clapham, Michael
Clappison, James
Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Tim
Conway, Derek
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cotter, Brian
Curry, rh David
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Dorrell, rh Stephen
Doughty, Sue
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Duncan Smith, rh Iain
Evans, Nigel
Ewing, Annabelle
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Fisher, Mark
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Foster, Don (Bath)
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francois, Mark
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Garnier, Edward
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Godsiff, Roger
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Gummer, rh John
Hague, rh William
Hammond, Philip
Hancock, Mike
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)
Harvey, Nick
Hawkins, Nick
Hayes, John (S Holland)
Heald, Oliver
Heath, David
Hendry, Charles
Hinchliffe, David
Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Hogg, rh Douglas
Holmes, Paul
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horam, John (Orpington)
Howard, rh Michael
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Jack, rh Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson, Boris (Henley)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Keetch, Paul
Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Kirkwood, Sir Archy
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, Andrew
Laws, David (Yeovil)
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, rh Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Lilley, rh Peter
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
McDonnell, John
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury & Atcham)
Mates, Michael
Maude, rh Francis
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
May, Mrs Theresa
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Moore, Michael
Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Norman, Archie
Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paisley, Rev. Ian
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Pugh, Dr. John
Quin, rh Joyce
Randall, John
Redwood, rh John
Rendel, David
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Angus (Moray)
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, David
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Salmond, Alex
Sanders, Adrian
Sayeed, Jonathan
Sedgemore, Brian
Selous, Andrew
Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Short, rh Clare
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Soames, Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stevenson, George
Streeter, Gary
Stunell, Andrew
Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Thurso, John
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Walter, Robert
Wareing, Robert N.
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Weir, Michael
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Willis, Phil
Winterton, Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike (Batley)
Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. David Wilshire and
Mr. Peter Luff

Question accordingly agreed to.

19 Nov 2003 : Column 923

Lords amendment No. 1 disagreed to.

Government amendment (a) in lieu of Lords amendment No. 1 agreed to.

Lords amendment No. 161 disagreed to.

Government amendments (a) to (bb) to the words restored agreed to.

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