Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-47)
MR DAVID
LAMMY MP AND
MS CLARE
DODGSON
14 OCTOBER 2003
Q40 Ross Cranston: And for those
people who have a very high "failure rate", do they
fall into the category C? Do not respond now but if you could
give us information about that and how it is going to be tightened
up that would be very useful.
Ms Dodgson: We are happy to do
that.
Mr Lammy: We have had success
on bringing in the judicial review. It has fallen from 83% to
34% if my recollection is right.[4]
Q41 Ross Cranston: That is on immigration
cases?
Ms Dodgson: Yes, that is broadly
right. We will certainly confirm to the last single figure when
we write.
Q42 Chairman: The draft immigration
specification which you issued to LSC states that practitioners
will be allowed to charge their clients on a private basis once
the maximum limits have been reached, but that is contrary to
the general rule for all other publicly funded work and sets a
slightly worrying precedent.
Ms Dodgson: There is a question
about what is it reasonable for the public purse to fund for a
straightforward case and if beyond that more work needs to be
done and the client and the supplier want to do that work, whether
in the round of options and exceptions in particular we would
want to consider that point. I am sure that the Minister will
speak but that seems a reasonable thing to look at.
Q43 Chairman: But you would not allow
that in the other areas of legal advice in which you are also
trying to limit excess costs and ensure that you are getting value
for money.
Mr Lammy: That is why we must
look at these things in the round. We must look at them vis-a"-vis
the whole legal aid pot. We must look at them vis-a"-vis
what we say is required in this particular case for what is a
vulnerable group of genuine asylum seekers but too often is for
people who have not got genuine claims and who are not supported
by the best advice, vis-a"-vis the public purse. That
is the balance. It is a difficult balance but that is the balance
of determination that we are looking at very carefully in this
consultation and that we have to continue to look at.
Q44 Chairman: Another issue is the
accreditation scheme. How is it envisaged that that will relate
to the specialist quality mark which you audit and the OISC level
of competence?
Ms Dodgson: We would want to look
at all of them and say can we get a basket of measures that gives
us messages about the quality and value for money of our supplier
base, and we are trying to look across and say that if we have
got a quality mark, if we have got accreditation, if we have got
peer review, if we have got other schemes, it may be that we look
at streamlining some of those as part of looking at how we accredit
suppliers. We do currently look at how those different accreditations
relate to one another.
Q45 Chairman: So might one of those
be a ticket to accreditation in this case or do you regard accreditation
for this work as specific and requiring particular needs to be
satisfied?
Mr Lammy: That is where we have
got to enter into the right and appropriate dialogue with the
Law Society and the professional bodies. As envisaged at this
stage we see three tiers: the junior fee earner standard, the
senior fee earner standard and an advanced standard for specialists
that are demonstrably specialists, and indeed we have said that
those specialists will get an uplift. We clearly have to discuss
with the Law Society and others how that integrates with the OISC
and others but there are, quite properly, different concerns one
would have about professional qualifications vis-a"-vis
advisers who have the accreditation but are not professionals
in the ostensible sense.
Q46 Chairman: One of the arguments
that has been put to us and obviously is being put to you all
the time is, is it not difficult to improve the standard of advice
and representation while at the same time imposing strict time
limits? Is there not a tension here between these two things?
Mr Lammy: Not necessarily. One
aspect of time limits is to focus attention on what is necessary
and what is required. How can I put this? We have to look to other
areas of law and I have to be conscious of other areas of law
when I am doing this. If you go and get divorced not everyone
turns up at Mishcon de Reya, who are leaders in this field. If
you have got a contract problem not everyone would pitch up at
Clifford Chance. We have to be minded of that across all areas
of law and I have to be minded of that across all areas of legal
aid.
Q47 Chairman: Perhaps I can send
you away with a quotation that was drawn to my attention from
the previously outgoing Lord Chancellor, who said in 1997 in the
Lords: "Many of the finest solicitors and barristers in this
country work on behalf of the disadvantaged in our society. .
. . These are lawyers who do not become rich. They act for refugees,
asylum seekers, prisoners, mental patients, victims of abuse and
assault. . . . To all of these lawyers, I say that their commitment
to their clients will be matched by my commitment to them."
I am not asking you to comment. I thought you might enjoy it and
might like to take it away with you.
Mr Lammy: I will do.
Chairman: We will be reporting very shortly
after our meeting on 28 October and thank you again for coming
today.
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