Examination of Witnesses (Questions 840-859)
TUESDAY 8 APRIL 2003
MR PAUL
HORROCKS, MR
PETER COX,
MR DAVID
NEWELL, MR
PETER LONG,
MR EDMUND
CURRAN AND
MR ED
ASQUITH
Chairman: Good afternoon. I will call
on Michael Fabricant to start the questions.
Michael Fabricant
840. The general perception that I have had
in the past is that regional and local newspapers tend to be more
responsible than the national papers, or at least some national
papers, when it comes to issues of privacy and good taste. By
the way, I do not know who is going to answer this question, but
I note that publications in England and Scotland received 36%
of all the complaints to the Press Complaints Commission, that
was back in 2002, and 50% of those complaints related to privacy
issues. Why do you think that is such a high proportion compared
to the total number of complains received?
(Mr Horrocks) I also looked at those
statistics. The first thing that you have to remember is that
there is a perception that people complain about privacy; that
may be celebrity led. I receive a number of complaints from ordinary
members of the public but more often than not they are to do with
issues that we are perfectly entitled to report but just happen
to upset them, if they have been involved in court cases, if their
names and addresses have been given at inquests, generally in
official body proceedings. I think the reason for it might be
that the regional and local press obviously have a greater breadth.
(Mr Newell) May I make the point that of course the
regional and local newspaper sector is a very large one; there
are 13,000 titles, which are read by 80% of the population. Our
readership reach is greater than the national newspaper sector.
It should not be all that surprising, given the editorial independence
exercised by those titles, that there is a certain number of complaints.
I would go on to make the point that these local newspapers are
reporting on the lives of real people on a daily basis. When those
real people do come up against the courts or traffic accidents,
there is always a tension line between the right to privacy, the
right to freedom of expression, and also the public interest in
having court processes held in open session. When that happens,
some people will complain about the system. What I am pleased
about in terms of today's session is that you do have before you
a range of editors from different types of titles. I do hope that
you will look at the whole of the newspaper industry in all its
varieties. I know that I have written on behalf of the industry
to the Committee to make the point that the amount of time you
appear to have given for oral evidence from national newspapers
is significantly greater than the 45 minutes you are giving to
our sector.
841. With the greatest respect, if you keep
on talking, there will be no time at all to consult the editors.
(Mr Newell) I conclude my remarks, so that others
can speak. I hope you understand the point I make.
842. I do. How do you characterise the difference
between local newspapers and national newspapers in their attitudes
toward protection of the privacy of an individual?
(Mr Long) The point has already been made to some
extent that we live very close to the people who read our newspapers,
and that imposes a very strict discipline on us. We cannot come
in and go away. We are there, we are answerable every week, if
you like. I think that discipline is one that has shaped the regional
newspapers. It has made us the creatures we are. I think we are
very responsible.
Derek Wyatt
843. Do you have a view on what Simon Kelner
said, that you would like a back-stop power? Do you support that
or are you against it for the PCC?
(Mr Horrocks) I am a newly-appointed member of the
PCC. I have been mightily impressed by the robust nature of all
the inquiries that I have seen made. When I joined, I wondered
what the relationship would be like between the editors and the
lay members. I did have some concerns and wondered whether or
not the editors would be able to exert undue influence. That has
turned out definitely not to be the cases. The lay members definitely
take the lead. I feel that it is a very robust system and that
were an ombudsman or a back-stop, call it what you will, to be
appointed, I think it would be unnecessary. I think that 16 members
of the PCC considering, researching and debating individual complaints
is the right format.
(Mr Curran) Simon Kelner is a colleague of mine in
the sense that I am associated with Independent News and Media
and on this issue I too beg to differ with him a bit on this.
I understand where he is coming from and I can see why. When people
want to try and make the Press Complaints Commission even more
effective, I think we should all have an open mind as to how we
should go about doing that. From my own personal perspective as
a member of it, I am not one of the big battalions there—Associated
Newspapers, News International or Trinity Mirror for that matter.
I am a member of Independent News and Media which I suspect would
not be perceived as being one of the big battalions. Therefore,
I tend to feel very independent. I know that Paul Dacre, for example,
has given evidence here. To me, Paul Dacre is another editor.
I do not feel intimidated by him or by any national newspaper
editor. I am not a national newspaper editor myself; I am not
associated with their groups. Therefore I feel that all I have
to do when I go to the PCC is apply my own criteria; i.e. would
I do what they have done in respect, for example, of something
that they have been involved in on a complaint? I make my judgement
on that basis. As far as the lay members are concerned, if I had
one criticism, it might be that perhaps there are too many grandees
amongst us. I have a few grey hairs myself. I think the Press
Complaints Commission, and many other public organisations, could
do with some younger people being involved in them because I think
they would be more representative of our society in general. As
far as the ombudsman is concerned, I do think that we are 16 ombudsmen.
Once a week we get a file of papers from the Press Complaints
Commission which sets out draft adjudications and we can decide
to reject those, ignore them or make whatever criticisms we like.
I think the lay members as well as the editors do that on a weekly
basis and do it quite forthrightly and are not intimidated by
any of these national editors if, for example, anyone feels that
we might be.
(Mr Asquith) Amongst the body of journalists being
trained at regional level, it is drummed into them that the PCC
Code is very important; it is part of their training. The PCC
Code is highly respected in the regions. Any reporters who do
not stick to it are called to account quite quickly. There is
great respect for the organisation. As a regional newspaper representative,
we generally feel that if we were called to account by the PCC,
it would be a great source of shame. That does exercise a degree
of accountability for us that is strongly felt amongst many of
the editors, certainly within our group, and amongst many of the
trainee journalists.
844. Do any of you have readers' editors like
The Guardian?
(Mr Curran) On the question of readers' editors, some
of us have large enough newspapers to have someone who is a senior
member of the editorial team, The Belfast Telegraph and
possibly Paul Horrock's Manchester Evening News, but the
vast majority of regional, daily and weekly newspapers I do not
think can afford to have that kind of luxury. I think the readers'
editor idea of Alan Rusbridger works fine when you can afford
to have that degree of manpower and the cost involved in maintaining
it as well. I believe that the Press Complaints Commission acts
on our behalf in a weekly and regional sense much more efficiently.
Outside the big groups, I think that is the best means of going
about things.
(Mr Horrocks) I do think, though, that newspapers
have woken up very quickly to the need to have somebody who is
a point of contact within the newspaper. I have an Assistant Editor
who handles all complaints. We make sure that we respond to those
complaints immediately by phone and then, within a few days, by
letter. It is amazing how many complaints can actually be resolved
both by a swift response and by a sense of fair play on both sides.
I also think that is what the PCC brings to this whole debate:
it is quick, fair and free. That speed of response is a message
that I would like to give this Committee. If there is any advice
that I would be giving to other newspaper editors from what I
have learned, it is: react quickly and react positively. Very
often you can find a compromise solution.
(Mr Asquith) The other key point in answering that
particular question is that we are seen in the community. We do
attend local functions and people can complain face to face, and
often do so. There is a natural balance, which exerts an accountability
on ourselves in terms of making sure that whatever we do as journalists
is defensible. It is keenly read and we know if we get it wrong,
our readers will not be shy in coming forward to say so, directly
or indirectly.
(Mr Cox) The Daily Record is a peculiar hybrid.
I do not know whether we form part of this particular evidence
body or not because of course we do circulate nationally; we are
a red-top tabloid; we are not localised in so far as the city
goes. However, having said that, I have a Managing Editor whose
responsibility I suppose is something like the Letters Editor.
Possibly the majority of his time is as a fixer, making sure that
we react as fast as possible to this. From my point of view, perhaps
one of the greatest assets the PCC gives me is my ability to phone
them at any time for advice, almost, if you like, as a pre-emptive
strike. I have got Guy Black out of his bath in Wales to give
me advice on things, and I find that extremely useful.
Chairman
845. Could I ask you about proportionality of
response. I quite understand that, as Mr Curran explained, you
may not have the resources to do things that major Fleet Street
newspapers can, but where a compliant is acknowledged and accepted,
one of the problems, it seems to me, is that, even if it is acknowledged
speedily, there is not a proportionality of recompense. I am not
even bringing in here the question of financial recompense, although
I believe that it could be argued there is a case for that. Let
us just say it happened to meet a case on a question of privacy
and just say an appalling accusation is splashed across the front
page of your newspaper about a person. That accusation is found
to be absolutely groundless; the Press Complaints Commission intervenes.
An apology is offered, but the apology is not the same splash
across the front page as the incident; the apology is buried away
in a few inches inside. If one is not even talking about financial
recompense or fining the newspaper, ought there not to be a proportionality
of acknowledgment of error?
(Mr Cox) I have heard this "buried away"
argument many times, and I do not think it is justified in fact.
In the two and a half years I have been Editor of the Daily
Record, I have not had any adjudication go against me, but
when I was on the Sunday Mail I did have one go against
me. It was on privacy and it involved Carole Smillie, the TV personality.
I made a mistake and the picture that I used was on the front
page. I put the adjudication on page 5 and I carried it at length.
That is a very humbling experience. Many people think: what is
the problem here, we are simply putting words on the page, but
it has a great bearing on your career structure for the PLC. It
is not a very pleasant professional experience to go through.
That coloured my judgment for the next four and a half years.
It has been better for me for that to have happened, but I certainly,
as far as my paper is concerned, would correct in a fulsome way
and in a prominent position.
846. That is very satisfactory. I wish more
would do it.
(Mr Horrocks) I think the view has very much changed
now, that you cannot bury away corrections or apologies. The public
will not accept it; our own proprietors will not accept it, quite
frankly. At my newspaper we try to make sure that the correction,
apology or whatever, appears further forward than the original,
shall we say, offending article, unless the reader has requested
right of reply with in the letters' page. We cannot afford to
offend the readers or the readership.
Rosemary McKenna
847. Mr Cox, can I ask you this question. The
Daily Record and the Sunday Mail have a superb record
of investigative journalism with recently some very successfully,
high profile results, which I think we all appreciate very much.
I would like to ask you a couple of questions about how that investigative
work is carried out. Who decides, first of all, that it is in
the public interest? What methods do you use and who decides what
are acceptable methods for the kind of subterfuge that you have
to use?
(Mr Cox) The three major campaigns that we have been
associated with are: the anti-drugs campaign; pyramid selling;
and loan sharking. All of those, through the publicity they received
in the Daily Record, have led to changes in the law, so
I think that is a good thing. Perhaps the Committee do not know
this but before "naming and shaming" became rather infamous,
we launched a name and shame drug dealing campaign in which we
did not take the convicted drug dealers, as happened on a rival's
paedophile campaign; we looked out for active drug dealers. We
named 211 drug dealers. There were complaints from two out of
211, which were rectified. They were not substantive in that basically
it could not be proved in a court of law, and that is where we
went wrong. The very first one we named was in court last week;
she was given 12 years. Her family, who were also drug dealing,
got 33 years in combination. They were turning over £1 million
profit a year. Obviously you cannot be too sensitive to their
personal privacy. I am very pleased that we broke their rights
to privacy, otherwise they would not be inside now. What we did,
quite honestly, was to encourage our readers who are in the sink
schemes to name drug dealers who were operating on their estates.
They came to us. Our first port of call was the police to see
whether they were known to police; in many cases they were but
not proven. We then used some methods of entrapment, once we had
seen a deal go down. Yes, we saw a deal, then we entrapped, and
that led to 211 cases without any recourse to law. That would
be the way I would expect most campaigns to be run.
848. If, for example, when you were carrying
out your investigation there was not a resulting case, or there
was not a resulting story, what happens to the information that
you have collected?
(Mr Cox) Nothing; we did not think it right or moral,
if we cannot prove that, to hand it over to any police sources.
It is left on reporters' tapes and notebooks. It is not recorded
on any databank.
849. It is not kept in any way?
(Mr Cox) No.
850. That was very successful. There have been
a couple of others. I have a very open mind on the whole issue,
but the thing we seem to keep coming back to—and the Chairman
has already referred to it—is those ordinary people who
feel their lives have been distorted or really seriously disturbed
in some way. We are not talking about celebrities but ordinary
families. To be fair, it does seem to be more the national press
than local press. Does anyone feel there is anything that the
PCC could do internally to improve the situation in terms of making
people feel better when they have an adjudication in favour of
them and against the newspaper?
(Mr Cox) I do not think we can go down the fines procedure
because what those people want, as you rightly point out, is some
kind of redress and the record set straight. I think that most
of us here are quite happy to do that as fast as possible.
(Mr Curran) As a member of the PCC, certainly I do
not want to waste my time, and I am sure neither do all the other
members, by getting an adjudication perhaps criticising an editor
of a newspaper, and then finding that they do not actually tell
their readers what we have done. I feel that they probably do
and that there is a requirement on them to publish the outcome
of an adjudication in full. It might be that under the new Chairmanship
of Sir Christopher Meyer that procedure could be looked at, perhaps
strengthened. I cannot see how we could possibly get to the point
of insisting that all the newspapers in the area carry a report.
I think that might be very difficult to achieve, but it might
be well worth monitoring how effective the existing adjudications
are in terms of the publicity given to them, with regional and
national newspapers.
(Mr Horrocks) I think the PCC also could encourage
newspapers, and they should take up this issue, perhaps to write
about and discuss within their own pages issues of privacy and
media intrusion and have that debated within the newspaper. There
is a lot more public interest in that issue. At one time, it may
have been regarded as an in-house difficulty; that is no longer
the case. I also think that it is useful for members of the PCC,
either commissioners or full-time officials, to get out into the
regions to talk to local newspaper editors, as they did recently
when we had the Director, Guy Black, come to talk to about 25
editors at Preston about issues of privacy and media intrusion.
It is positive to have it more and more debated by ourselves and
within our newspaper columns.
John Thurso
851. May I say first of all that it is rather
nice to have a panel of editors giving us such considered evidence
after some of the carpet bombing we have endured in earlier sessions
of this Committee. May I ask about two points that have already
come up. Mr Cox, you mentioned the ability to ring Guy Black in
the bath, which sounds very tabloid. The concept that you have
somebody that you can ring, all of you, and you can discuss and
therefore get advice as to whether something is appropriate, or
all of it is appropriate, seems to be very beneficial. It also
implies that there is an understanding within the PCC itself of
perhaps more than we have understood to date of where the lines
might be. Could I ask any of you to elaborate on that, anyone
who would like to, because it clearly could be, properly used
as it has been, something that could be a helpful tool in this
whole evolving concept.
(Mr Cox) When I go for advice, as I do on a fairly
regular basis, it is always made totally clear that this is an
interpretation of the Code of Conduct and there is no guarantee—as
there are 16 minds on that Committee—that they are going
to come and agree with the line of advice. However, there are
certain parameters where it is useful. For example, where we are
looking at children, and I have four of them so it is uppermost
in my mind, it is about the exposure of children to hard news
stories. Therefore you have to think to yourself: does a picture
of a three year old equate with a picture of a seven year old,
and which is worse? It is that kind of advice that you have to
get from the PCC immediately. Then of course, and every editor
is different here, they have to make their own minds up whether
they want to follow that advice or not, but that is where I find
it useful.
(Mr Curran) My sense of living in the regions is probably
a bit different from that of a national newspaper. I think it
is a slightly more lonely existence being an editor, probably
even more so on a weekly newspaper than on a large regional newspaper,
and you really greatly appreciate the opportunity to pick up the
phone and phone almost anybody—phone a friend—to try
sometimes to come to a conclusion. That is where it is very valuable
to have the PCC. From time to time, we all take legal advice but
the reality is that particularly in the regions there are not
an awful lot of solicitors and lawyers who have a great knowledge
of the world in which we exist. I know one or two but there are
many areas where there are not any at all. It is very valuable
to have that opportunity. From reading some of the earlier evidence,
there appeared to be, I thought, a slight misconception that the
PCC was entirely reactive. My understanding is that it is occasionally
proactive, maybe not perhaps as the Select Committee wishes it
to be. I do know that in the case, for example, of the Omagh bombing
in Northern Ireland, and I think in Dunblane and various other
major tragic stories, advice was proactively offered to the media
on how those situations should be handled. I think maybe we should
do more of that.
(Mr Horrocks) I find that the advice, guidance, call
it what you will, is extremely useful. I used it before I became
a member of the PCC. I have used it since. I encourage the Assistant
Editor who handles all the complaints also to use it. I have also
found it very useful to be able to take the adjudications from
the PCC, from the website, and e-mail them to all journalists
each time there is a new adjudication. We have weekly meetings
in different departments. I then get each department to discuss
the adjudications and what decisions we would have made in those
circumstances and actually to run through the same scenario again.
That focuses everybody's mind very quickly on the issues.
(Mr Long) To echo what Ed Curran was saying, it can
be very lonely being editor of a weekly newspaper. I have a group
of nine weekly titles. I can think specifically of one occasion
when there was a question of a child's photograph and whether
we should publish it. Like many other members of this group before
you, I think that children do receive particular care from us.
We really think very carefully about that. I simply could not
come to a conclusion on this and decided to ring the PCC and just
see what they had to say. In fact what they had was quite a bit
of very useful case history that they were able to inform me about;
they faxed me over their various adjudications. After I looked
at that, directly as a result of the help they have given me,
I decided against carrying the picture. It is very useful from
our point of view to have that service available.
852. It does seem to me therefore that if we
were minded to make any recommendations which the PCC may or may
not see fit to pay attention to, more awareness of that proactive,
preemptive approach might be one beneficial area to which we could
address ourselves.
Ms Shipley
853. Mr Cox, your drug dealers' initiative was
very interesting. How would you deal with the naming and shaming
of the paedophiles?
(Mr Cox) I would not have done it, personally, but
that is every editor's decision.
854. May I ask the others, each of you, how
would you have dealt with it?
(Mr Curran) I would not have named and shamed.
855. We are talking about a strongly suggested
group that was not charged.
(Mr Curran) I have particularly strong reasons for
not doing so. The real risk in my environment was that some of
these people would move out of the area in which we exist within
the United Kingdom and would go to another jurisdiction where
they are actually not subject to the same degree of monitoring.
(Mr Horrocks) We have a protocol with the local police
forces in Greater Manchester, Lancashire and Cheshire whereby,
if we were planning to do any story about a convicted paedophile
living in the community, we would consult with them first. We
would always then retain the right to come to our own decision,
but we have that protocol laid down.
856. Actually you would name and shame, or you
could?
(Mr Horrocks) In certain circumstances, if we thought
there was a risk to public safety and that parents and children
were unaware, I could see a possibility that we would do that.
However, I would have to say that would be very much a last resort
action. We would then have to think very hard about it, but I
am not saying never.
(Mr Long) Very much like Paul, you never say never
to anything but the protocols that are in existence up and down
the country between newspapers and the police forces, and which
involve also probationary services, are very good and useful instruments
in these cases. It has never happened to me and so I could not
give you a straight answer on it.
857. But it will. It will come your way.
(Mr Long) It may well do but my first instinct would
be to go and talk to the police about it.
(Mr Asquith) We would not name them unless there were
particular reasons for doing so. We would certainly consult with
probation officers, social services and the police before doing
so. We had an example last week where we were aware of some parents
protesting and raising particular concern about an acknowledged
paedophile in the area. That was not something we were going to
publish without further investigation. Generally, even after that
investigation, we probably would not name but we certainly may
carry the story in terms of local concern but without being very
specific as to who was being referred to.
858. How did The News of the World manage
just to do it then? If you have all the codes in place and all
the protocols and all of you are more or less in agreement, how
did The News of the World manage to do it?
(Mr Horrocks) That was their issue and their campaign.
That was their decision.
859. The vast weight of your opinion here suggests
they should not do it. It is a very serous one because it can
lead to very serious mass mob mentality reactions. You do not
think really they should have done it.
(Mr Cox) That is one newspaper. There are thousands
of newspapers. It is a very significant newspaper and one editor.
If that is the decision, that is the decision.
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