Examination of Witnesses(Questions 180-192)
RT HON
TESSA JOWELL,
DR KIM
HOWELLS, MR
BRIAN LEONARD
AND MR
SIMON BROADLEY
TUESDAY 19 NOVEMBER 2002
180. It is not money really, is it? You could
argue it is very efficient but I might argue at 24p per head we
could be arguing that more could be spent.
(Dr Howells) Mr Flook, can I perhaps help you. As
a great advocate of small government—that is me, not you—
181. I am too.
(Dr Howells)—it is roughly comparable with the
DTI's allocation of 340 officials in 17 separate units for all
business relations work where ETC and BTA specialists are added
in. It is roughly on a par with the allocation to sectors that
is in DTI at the moment.
182. Even though it is the fifth largest industry?
(Dr Howells) Yes, indeed.
183. Do you think it should be sitting in with
the DTI?
(Dr Howells) No, I do not.
184. I did not think you would.
(Dr Howells) We spend a billion pounds a year in this
Department on the upkeep of some of the biggest attractions in
Britain for tourists: the museums and the galleries and so on.
We spend a lot of money on sport and sport tourism is very big.
I think there is a symbiotic relationship there which Government
probably recognises and it ought to remain in DCMS. DTI is too
big.
Ms Shipley
185. As a West Midlands MP listening to everything
so far, devolution has massively disadvantaged England and the
West Midlands. Your own figures today, Minister, are shocking,
24p. Mind you, that said, having had no funding before in England
it is progress but it is pitiful progress, it is tiny, tiny, tiny:
£10 million over three years as against £25 million
for Scotland or £18 million for Wales give or take a few
million. If you give or take a few million from England it has
got nothing left. If you give or take a few million from Scotland
or Wales they have still got a nice big figure. It is not very
good really. On this matched funding, I can see historically why
it has happened, Secretary of State, but if you are England you
are not very happy about it. £25 million to Scotland unmatched,
£18 million to Wales unmatched, £10 million to England
over three years matched. Matched by whom? Who do you have in
mind for coming up with this money?
(Tessa Jowell) The model is The Million Visitor
Campaign where the BTA secured in cash or kind matched funding
worth £25 million.
(Mr Leonard) Yes, in total it was £25 million.
(Tessa Jowell) Matched funding in cash or in kind.
When I say "in kind" I mean in branding or other forms
of marketing. That is the model that we want to build on.
186. Okay. So £25 million was matched from
where? Where has it come from?
(Tessa Jowell) It was matched from a range of sources.
Again, we can give you the lists of the companies that have subscribed
to The Million Visitor Campaign.
187. So you can state today to us that you do
not have anyone in mind for matching the £10 million?
(Tessa Jowell) Not yet for no reason other than we
announced the nature of the reforms three weeks ago, there is
now a six or seven month period while the new organisation is
constructed as more than simply a merger of the BTA and the ETC,
and the process of negotiating with industry has not yet begun.
Ms Shipley: So you have no-one in mind
at the moment?
Chairman: I have got to wind up, Debra,
I am sorry. I have only got three minutes for Chris.
Ms Shipley: Ask my question.
Mr Bryant: I am sorry, I was not listening,
I am afraid.
Ms Shipley: I can continue.
Mr Bryant
188. No, you cannot. I was amused by the discussion
about welcoming people into this country and not welcoming people
into this country. As you drive up the M1 and arrive in Northamptonshire
it says on the motorway "Welcome to Northamptonshire"
and then a hundred yards further down it says "Please keep
your distance". I just want to ask you a question about international
tourism and the dispersal issues that Kim Howells was raising.
It seems to me that tourism can play an important role in regeneration
and most of the MPs who have been in the room this morning do
not come from constituencies where there are the top 20 or even
30 or 40 or 50 sights in the country that international visitors
will be coming to. How can we get cleverer about pushing people
out further around the country?
(Dr Howells) One of the objectives set by various
administrations was that London ought to be seen as a gateway.
In other words, get the tourists into London and then work out
ways of getting them to wherever, to Scotland, to Wales or to
the West Midlands.
Mr Flook: Somerset
Michael Fabricant
189. Lichfield.
(Dr Howells) I am afraid that both London and the
other tourism boards, and successive governments, have failed
dismally to do this. This is a real priority, it seems to me.
It is a priority for two reasons. Not only because it is going
to add to the wealth of the areas that the tourists go to but
if we can communicate to potential tourists the wonderful countryside,
the cities, the attractions that are out there, it adds to the
sum total of Britain's attractiveness to potential tourists.
Mr Bryant
190. And they might come a second or a third
or a fourth time.
(Dr Howells) Exactly, and that raises a whole host
of other questions about quality, which we have not had time to
discuss this morning. What we do not want is tourists to come
here and to find themselves in the Rhondda staying at an hotel
which gives them a bad deal.
Chairman: One stay and you never leave
actually.
Mr Bryant
191. We will get you to visit, Chairman.
(Dr Howells) We do not want them to come there and
then have a bad deal and not come again.
192. This issue about quality is not just about
hotels and what is traditionally seen as tourism because there
is still this concept of the grand tour tourism but actually a
lot of tourism is individual people deciding to go mountain biking
somewhere where they have not been before. Lots of American tourists
are coming to the theatre in London and getting a pretty raw deal
because many London theatres are manky and have needed updating
for many, many years. The quality of the show may be excellent
but the quality of the experience may be failing. It seems to
me that the symbiosis that you were talking about is quite important
in terms of the relationship with other things that are in with
culture, media and sport.
(Dr Howells) Absolutely. We have been talking to lots
of other departments about this, not only about the quality of
hotels and accommodation, although that is very, very important
in terms of how we train people and give them skills and in this
industry, which is so peculiar because it has not had one, have
a proper career structure so people can aim to improve the quality
of the service and get better pay at the end of it and a sense
of having a proper career. That is something that we have got
to do but we have also got to stress there are themes that people
can follow there. When they get on a website they should be able
to realise that they can go mountain biking in Rhondda or in the
Cairngorms or wherever they want to go.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed,
we are most grateful to you. We will see you again, no doubt quite
soon. Thank you.
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