Examination of Witnesses(Questions 228-239)
MR PETER
LEDERER OBE AND
MR PHILIP
RIDDLE
TUESDAY 26 NOVEMBER 2002
Chairman
228. Good morning and welcome. I wonder if I
could start by asking you how you think the new structure will
work. It is obviously anomalous, is it not, in the sense that
there you are, a free-standing organisation funded through devolution
with a tourist minister whom we are looking forward to seeing
later this morning, and yet you are also going to be represented
by the BTA? Could I ask quite bluntly, do you think it will work?
(Mr Lederer) I suppose we keep a watching
brief. We certainly have concerns, as we stated before, about
eye off the ball because inevitably when you put two organisations
together, my experience of mergers is that unless you create a
new organisation they tend not to work as well as they could,
so we are keeping a very close watching brief on it. The other
issue is, as you touched on earlier, how is England to be marketed
in the future and using England as a brand? I do not care for
the word "brand" because my experience of brands is
that a brand is not a brand unless you can control the product,
which is an issue for all of us who are marketing a country. If
we call it a brand then how we are going to develop what is this
brand, England, or parts of it, is going to be critical. We need
to keep a watching brief on how the BTA's time is going to be
spent to make sure that what our objectives are and how our strategy
is being delivered overseas, which is our priority.
229. Again let me be blunt. The BTA's job is
to project the whole of the UK. No doubt it will do its very best
to do that but at the same time, if it is projecting the whole
of the UK, it is going to spend quite a lot of its time projecting
England, Wales and Northern Ireland, inevitably, and that is what
it is there for. That being so, would you feel that that set-up,
which presumably is done in order to attract people coming to
the country as a whole since London is the gateway, will give
sufficient emphasis as far as Scotland is concerned, or do you
believe that there may be a duplication of effort and perhaps
an unnecessary expenditure of money too many ways?
(Mr Lederer) I do not think it is necessarily the
best organisation. Not to have a separate England and a clearly
identified England marketing body taking the biggest picture,
looking at the UK, has got be a question in my mind. My concern
is this eye off the ball. The BTA has an excellent reputation
abroad and we should be careful not to damage that. We are also
working in probably the most competitive industry in the world
at the present with a huge growth potential of 4.5% a year projected
over the next 15 years. That level of scale of opportunity frankly
over the next year, thinking about who is doing what and what
is happening to whom, is a huge worry to me as an industry player,
so I think we have got to get ourselves sorted out as quickly
as possible. We have to make it work. The BTA has always done
a good job and we have obviously challenged them and there is
a tension in that relationship and that is healthy. We will always
challenge them to make sure that Scotland is high on the agenda.
We are fortunate, as you mentioned earlier, that the brand in
Scotland is very strong and if you talk about the brands that
are known overseas, they tend to be London, Scotland, and then
you are getting into the Stratford-on-Avons and places like that.
We should work on those strengths but that does not mean you do
not also build up areas where you are weak. There is a big opportunity
and we do not have too much time to spend sorting it out.
230. Do you think that there is a real problem
with regard to projection of Scotland in particular, since we
are meeting you today, and this is as it were a Scottish day,
but also projecting Britain as a whole, namely that possibly the
most effective way of attracting people is to play to outside
perceptions and in many ways outside perceptions of this country
are that it is quaint? The particular image of Britain is of processions,
the Royal family, Wales, bards,—and we have a very prominent
bard here today. I am not being frivolous about this. This country
after all inherently, very much including Scotland, is a modern,
up-to-date country leading the world in all kinds of developments
and yet to a considerable degree that is not the way we are seen
abroad and if we are going to attract visitors we have got to
play to the perception rather than what may be the reality.
(Mr Riddle) That is very important but we must make
sure that it is the consumer's perception and not our perception.
The point that Peter made and I would re-emphasise is that this
is an intensely competitive industry. I was at the World Travel
Market last week. There were 180 exhibitors there; that is 180
other countries and states competing with us for the world's biggest
and probably fastest-growing industry on this scale. We really
have to be sharp and the essence of being sharp is to understand
consumers and what they want and I think we do get distracted
into what we think is right in terms of structures and also in
what we sell. I think it is very important that we focus on what
consumers want to buy and our organisation should be aligned to
that and the way we market should be aligned to that. I will take
slight exception, Mr Chairman, to characterising Scotland as just
whisky and tourism and kilts and tartan. There are many markets
out there and although those arguments are very strong and that
is what we should deliver in those segments, there are a great
many other segments because Scotland is appealing to completely
different images and different activities and different needs
and our job is to understand all of those segments and to deliver
into each of those segments what the consumer really wants, the
products on the ground.
Derek Wyatt
231. We have an institution called the British
Council overseas. It has over 120 offices. Do you think it ought
to have a tourist function?
(Mr Lederer) The strange thing about tourism is that
it seems to be treated as a different industry. To me it is one
of the many strong industries that this country has and should
be treated accordingly. This is where the argument goes about
whether the DTI or some other department is doing it in Scotland,
why is it carved up. This is the argument about having a separate
tourism minister. In terms of how we use the huge strengths we
have got overseas, we should of course use as many of them as
possible as long as it is done in a co-ordinated way. One of the
issues about all of this discussion that does scare me a little
bit is that we end up talking about structures and who is doing
what and current organisations. If this was a commercial opportunity
on the scale we think it is, tourism, as Phil has said, has huge
potential. If we looked at this commercially we would say, "Where
is the political will and where is the leadership that says that
we want this industry to be 50% bigger?", as we would in
our own businesses, and to say, "How do we get to that point?"
We then put a strategy in place for, "We would like to get
from here where we are today and we would like to be a play on
this scale in ten years' time, 15 years' time", whatever.
You put the strategy in place. You then think about what structure
you put in place to support that strategy. We need to be careful
that we do not end up talking about playing with the structures
and not having a strategy and not actually having a goal that
we are shooting for.
232. Do you think we have not got a strategy?
(Mr Lederer) For Scotland we now do have a strategy,
a very clear strategy, and we are focused on it and it takes up
our time every day of the week and that is how we spend our day.
I would say that the UK needs to think about it as well. Where
do you want this industry to be in ten years' time? There is huge
potential. We are either going to maximise that potential or we
are going to lose out.
233. My family had part of its holiday in Skye
last year and we booked in via the brilliant website you have,
so congratulations for that. We stayed in Flodigarry in the north
east part of Skye. The disappointment was that we could not fly
to the island. There was an airport before but if you look at
the short-haul Easyjet, Ryanair phenomenon, it is going to the
continent. It is not going to Scotland and it is not going to
much of Ireland, even though Ryanair does some of that. Is there
an airport strategy that you have put into the Green Paper that
concludes on 30 November for the islands of Scotland?
(Mr Riddle) I do not think we should focus very specifically
on the islands but we certainly do on transportation and access
within which the islands are very significant. Scotland, especially
nowadays, is very much a short break destination. One of the key
elements of being successful as a short break destination is that
you need good direct access. You get there, you do not want to
mess about changing planes, and you want excellent convenient
transport when you are there so that you can get about and not
be stopping in one place and you can add value to your break.
We have taken great pains to emphasise the need for this for tourism.
We have in terms of continental access, for example, identified
the routes we think are really important together with the Scottish
Enterprise figures. It is no good just putting in lots more routes.
If the routes are primarily dominated by outbound traffic then
for our economy that is not very good so it is very important
to identify the routes to generate income to Scotland from tourism.
Better routes to the islands, undoubtedly we would favour. I am
very pleased to see new competition on the Stornoway route is
producing fares unheard of before and we hope to see that spreading.
234. We could not take a car on the railway
anywhere. We used to. When I first went to Scotland 25 years ago
you could take a car all over the place. The issue is that it
is £15 to go to Barcelona to watch Real Madrid at the weekend.
I cannot get to Skye. I know it is apples and pears, but the issue
is, if you want us to come there has to be a better way of coming.
(Mr Riddle) As I say, we are emphasising the access.
I would say though that partly there is a psychological element
on access that we have to get across, that we are tackling with
our marketing, "Scotland is closer than you think",
and there is a bridge to Skye now so you can drive there all the
way.
Mr Bryant
235. How much work do you do on gathering the
Scots diaspora? I lived in Argentina for a while in 1986 and there
are five pipe bands in Buenos Aires, so there must be quite a
lot of people all way round the world, some of them perhaps in
seed markets, as you call them in your presentation. How much
work do you do on that?
(Mr Lederer) Our strategy is very focused on the countries
where we target our resources. Any marketing campaign has to be
very targeted if it is going to work because you have got limited
resources. However, there are a number of initiatives in Scotland
in conjunction with Helen Liddell, the Friends of Scotland campaign
and Global Scots, which is run by Scottish Enterprise and which
has about 400 diaspora around the world, many in America at the
moment but expanding into the Far East and other places. They
are actively using those people both to help Scottish businesses
abroad and to make contacts for people who are going there to
develop business, whether that is us or the industry.
236. Genealogy is one of the most popular pastimes
in the world. You have only got to go into any computer store
to see how many different software programmes there are now. Do
you do any work on trying to encourage the Government to put the
registers of births, deaths and marriages on line and have a tourism
connection into that on-line presence which would encourage people
to come to Scotland?
(Mr Riddle) We are working very closely with the Registrar's
Office in offering a tourism product for people who want to trace
their ancestors. It is a very interesting development because,
while genealogy is now extremely popular, our challenge is to
build a link between that interest and visiting Scotland. You
could argue that having fantastic access on the Internet precludes
the need to visit. I do not think that is the case but that is
the challenge. We have to make it very interesting for people
to trace their roots but then to say,"Now come and see them".
We have to make that seamless link and to say, "It is easy
to get here. Come and see the factory, see the housing".
We have our own website, ancestralscotland.com, which we have
launched in the UK, which we have launched in the United States
and which very recently we have launched in Australia and New
Zealand and that is the precise purpose of that. It is not a genealogical
tour. It is a tour to take you from the genealogical research
into a visit to your roots.
237. One of the issues that you raise in your
submission is about the product and you point out that in recent
years the volume and value of tourism in Scotland has declined
from both domestic and overseas markets. I presume by "recent
years" you mean that this was starting before September 11
and Foot and Mouth and that the long term factors that affect
that are perceived low levels of quality and value for money in
some areas and sectors. What do you mean by that?
(Mr Lederer) There are two parts to that quality issue.
The most important part in my mind is the people element of it,
so in terms of the skills of the individuals in the industry and
the commitment to training and development. The other part of
it is the physical part. That does not just mean hotels. The judgement
of quality in my mind is the warmth of the welcome and the professionalism
of the people, value for money, and it ought to be spotlessly
clean. Spotlessly clean means no litter at the airport or it means
the roads are kept properly and of course it means that the hotel
you check into is spotlessly clean and delivers the services.
The people side I also think is key because people will forgive,
if it is clean, the odd worn carpet or worn curtains. What we
will not forgive is poor service or poor attitude.
238. One of the ways in which the Spanish tourism
industry and the government in Spain, tried to turn around their
reputation for low levels of quality and value for money in some
areas and sectors, and I guess one would mostly argue that they
have succeeded in doing that, is their mandatory Lista de Reclamacio«nes,
their book that has to be available for complaints, and the fact
that every complaint then has to go through to the local authority,
so that there is quite a hefty penalty for poor service. Do you
think that that is a model that would work in Britain?
(Mr Lederer) It is interesting that there is a debate
just kicking off in Scotland at the moment about compulsory registration
and the pros and cons of that and what does it mean. If we look
at our competitors in places like Austria, where I was a couple
of years ago at New Year, you cannot operate a business in our
sector there without having the diploma on the wall. The diploma
is not onerous but it means you have gone through the basics.
If that is up-rating the skills of the management and leadership
in the industry, that is great. If it is another policing service
personally I am not for that. I do not think that will necessarily
work. Part of this debate is looking at what other countries are
doing and what has worked and what has not, again, all driven
by the expectations of the consumer. If we think the consumer
expectations in the last five years have been tough in the way
they have accelerated, it is nothing to the next five and ten
years. The more people travel the higher their expectations are
going to be. If we do not meet those demands, whether it is in
London or outside or in Scotland, then we will fail as a tourist
destination however much we market it.
239. One final question about modern foreign
languages. I presume that the industry needs people who speak
modern foreign languages, and I do not just mean English. Are
you confident that we are growing enough young people who are
studying modern foreign languages to be able to service the industry
in the future?
(Mr Lederer) I am not sure of the numbers but we certainly
need them. Whether they come from this country or overseas, that
is fine, but we do need people who are multilingual in this country
if we are going to compete.
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