Examination of Witnesses(Questions 260-272)
MR PETER
LEDERER OBE AND
MR PHILIP
RIDDLE
TUESDAY 26 NOVEMBER 2002
Mr Flook
260. I note from the figures that there has
been a reduction in inbound tourism in Scotland over the years
and no doubt there are lots of reasons for that. What percentage
of that reduction has been English tourists, if any?
(Mr Lederer) Are you talking about overseas tourists?
261. I am talking about the number of tourists
going into Scotland. I am English. I do not represent anything
to do with Scotland so you can answer this from the Scottish perspective.
(Mr Lederer) Are you talking about overseas or domestic
tourists?
262. Both.
(Mr Riddle) From 1997 to 2001 I believe we lost somewhere
in the region of three million visitors in total. About 500,000
of those were not British, so most of them would be British. Of
those British we have not got a precise figure but I think it
would be approximately 50% English, 50% Scottish.
(Mr Lederer) But that would include Scots, for example,
who did holiday in Scotland and then went abroad, so you have
to factor in a lot of these things.
(Mr Riddle) Over the same period you can see quite
a significant increase in expenditure by British people overseas.
The decline from 1997 through to 2001 was primarily due to two
factors: the massive increase in competition, new countries opening
up, made all the more competitive by an exchange rate that was
rather disadvantageous, and cheaper access. You can see the growth
of cheaper access to all these new destinations attracting the
British travelling public.
263. Does distance matter—I presume it
does, but to what extent—the further you go into England
in relation to people's propensity for wanting to go to Scotland?
That is, do people from Somerset have as strong a propensity to
go to Scotland as they do from, say, Yorkshire?
(Mr Lederer) The strongest market is right here, London
and the south east, and after that there is an element of the
closer you are the easier it is to jump in the car and go, if
you are in Newcastle, to Edinburgh or come to Perthshire and it
is fairly quick, and that gets less in general terms as you go
south. That is the market.
264. Is that market from London because obviously
there are a lot of people here who have moved from Scotland to
London and they are going home, or is it to do with better transportation
links?
(Mr Lederer) I think both of those. Visiting families
and relatives is a huge market in itself. Also the access is that
much easier again, because you can jump on a flight from several
airports around London and get there very easily now.
265. The reason I am asking is that there is
a very good train from Somerset to large elements of Scotland
and yet you do not seem to see too much advertising of that. Could
it be that you are impacted by the likes of the poor cross-country
Virgin services?
(Mr Lederer) I am not sure.
266. They have a very bad reputation for turning
up on time. It used to be to do with Railtrack, or whatever it
is called now.
(Mr Riddle) In general terms it probably is fair to
say that railway travel is not seen as nearly as attractive as
it used to be and is very important for Scotland. One of the previous
heydays of Scottish tourism, going back to Victorian times, was
built on the back of the railways which was also relatively short
breaks going to country hotels in the Highlands by train to a
purpose-built station. We would like to see that come back. It
is not there today but I think that would be a major contribution
to better access to the country and around the country.
267. I get the perception that, if you look
at English patriotism growing, there is an increasing awareness
of whingeing Scots moaning about the English and what-have-you.
Does that impact on people's desire to go to Scotland or is it
rather like the fact that we still go to France even though we
dislike the French? Have you detected at all an increasing reluctance?
(Mr Lederer) No. We would be very concerned if that
was the case.
268. Is there going to be?
(Mr Lederer) If that is a growing perception in England
we would be very worried about it. Whether it or it is not I do
not know. We need to institute some research but that would be
a very serious concern. It is not the case but it would be a serious
concern.
Rosemary McKenna
269. I am delighted about the idea of driving
up standards. I am passionate about quality and quality of service
and I do think there has been a much more professional approach
over the last five to ten years. You can see it; it is very obvious.
There are a whole list of areas that we need to look at to try
and improve them. One of the areas I would like to explore a bit
with you has already been looked at but perhaps we could explore
it a bit more deeply and that is training and training for quality.
My local college, Cumbernauld College, does an excellent job and
produces some very fine young people, well trained, but there
is strong anecdotal evidence that a lot of young people leave
the industry. Is that true and, if so, what are you doing to address
that?
(Mr Lederer) I think it is true. It frustrates me
enormously. I do a lot of talks to schools and various young people,
and I have two sons of my own who obviously look at the industry
with some interest. They see it as a very exciting industry. They
like the fact that it is seven days a week, it is 24 hours a day,
it is clubs, it is pubs, it is bars, it is hotels. They love that
fact and they think it is terrific. Then they talk to their teachers
and parents and that is the first place they get put off. If they
made it into a college like Cumbernauld which, as you say, does
a very good job and gets people well prepared, the worry then
is this issue about what kind of businesses are they going into
and are they encouraged or put off? It is getting better. Is it
getting better and fast enough to keep up with consumer changes
in their expectations? That is my worry. The two biggest concerns
for my business is the growth in customer expectations and will
I be able to find people fast enough to take care of those rising
expectations, that is the real issue.
270. I agree with that. I see real problems
for these young people. Then at a stage further on there are those
who go through degree qualifications and achieve, but even after
that they are very often in the industry for a while, is that
right, and then they are off somewhere else?
(Mr Lederer) Yes, I think that is fair and it does
happen. Equally, we need to be careful because a lot of those
young people go into the industry. If you go and speak to the
bosses at Boots, as I have done, you will find that they target
their young graduates from hotel and catering courses because
they know they have been well schooled in the art of looking after
people, that is what they are going after. There are a lot of
people after those young people, which is great. Equally, we get
people who have got degrees in geography or other degrees. I do
not think that is a problem. I think it is about whether we look
after our people as well as Boots or Marks & Spencer do, if
they are the bench mark, and are they going back to their peers
saying this is an industry that not only is exciting but there
are real prospects and you get looked after and you get good training
and development.
271. On the issue of rail transport, I agree
with you, I think there is a real opportunity there. Do you talk
to the Scottish Executive about improving the transport infrastructure
and, on a national scale, improving rail links? It is a very pleasant
holiday to be able to go on to a train without having the hassle
of getting to an airport or driving. Do you see any hopeful signs
there that you are being listened to?
(Mr Riddle) I think the growth in tourism has risen
with the Government and with the community, so that can only be
a good thing as far as we are concerned and therefore our contributions
on all major issues do get a better hearing than they used to
do. Unfortunately that was partly due to the tragedies of last
year which emphasised how significant tourism is. Obviously it
is not feasible for us to make significant changes in internal
transportation, but I do believe the subject is being addressed.
I think there is a new emphasis because it is not just tourism
but other areas of business that are calling on the Executive
to have a good look at the transport structure within Scotland.
Chairman
272. Thank you very much indeed. We are most
grateful to you, gentlemen.
(Mr Riddle) Chairman, I understand you are moving
on to films at a later date. We would like to give you a book
about locations in Scotland because that is, of course, the best
place in the world to make films!
Chairman: Thank you.
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