Examination of Witnesses(Question Numbers
320-339)
MR PHILIP
EVANS, MR
JONATHAN JONES
AND MR
STEVE WEBB
TUESDAY 17 DECEMBER 2002
320. There has been some reporting in the press
over the last two weeks about Objective 1 money not being spent
and the danger of it not being drawn down from the EU and so on.
Are there problems in terms of you finding projects which should
attract money? Are there other projects which should be attracting
money which are not? Is the process too slow? What is your impression?
(Mr Evans) We were slightly disadvantaged originally
under the criteria for Objective 1 in that tourism was not given
a priority status, so consequently we had to go through measures
of seeing how we could raise the funds through various avenues.
All the funding, and there was some £10 million which we
have achieved this year, we have already spent. There is no shortage
of projects because it is strategy-driven. We look at our strategy,
we say, "How do we invest this money?" There would be
a fairly long queue at Brunel House if you started talking about
grants; there is no shortage of applicants.
(Mr Jones) I would just add that it is not giving
out money willy-nilly. Those projects are analysed in some fair
degree of detail and we have to meet our objectives. So for every
£12,500 we spend on capital grant aid for an Objective 1
area, we create the equivalent of one full-time job, and for every
£7,500 we spend in a non-Objective 1 area, we create a full-time
job. Those figures are our own targets and they are monitored
very closely by the National Assembly. If we do not hit those
targets, they will not give us any more money.
(Mr Webb) The scheme we operate with the support of
Objective 1 money means that money is finding its way into the
hands of businesses. We are one of the few scheme-driven funds
through European grant aid, which allows us to target small businesses,
so we are actually putting the money where it is supposed to be
going, and that is into the tourism industry.
321. One of the issues we heard from the ministers
when they were along here was the issue of trying to get foreign
visitors coming to Britain not just to go to London and Edinburgh
but to diversify and go out wider into the country. It seems relatively
easy to get people to go to Cardiff but much more difficult to
get people to go elsewhere in Wales, and it seems even more difficult
to get people to go into the valley communities. Obviously the
valleys are the main part of the Objective 1 area. What are you
doing to address that problem?
(Mr Evans) You are very correct in what you are saying,
because there is a parochial nature in Wales which says, "This
is my boundary, this is my patch, this is my manor, we will organise
tourism from within it." One of our major tasks which we
are now achieving is actually breaking down those boundaries.
As was said, when a visitor gets off the plane at Heathrow and
comes to Wales, he is not aware where Powys starts or Gwynedd
finishes, and we have now got all the local authorities in the
valleys on a Valley Marketing Initiative and the valleys are now
being promoted through heritage and culture as a product from
east to west. With the Regional Tourist Partnerships, if you take
the south east, we have ten local authorities for the first time
ever sitting down round a table talking about a joint marketing
strategy. We will not devolve our funds to the regions unless
they have these global issues.
322. I do not know whether it is just my experience
of the Rhondda and Taff but it feels very, very lumbering. There
seems to be little self-confidence about saying, "Actually
the valleys have some of the most beautiful geography in the country."
They are green again, they are not what they were 70, 80 years
ago when you had to clean the front room twice a day because of
the coal dust, but there is an industrial heritage of which people
are proud. It still feels as if people are very hesitant. I know
there are problems in some areas, there are not enough bed and
breakfasts, the Forestry Commission historically has been pretty
inconsiderate towards the valley landscape, so do you really have
confidence that over the next five, 10 years we are going to see
a difference in that?
(Mr Jones) We are confident. As Philip said, we have
kick-started this initiative to bring all the local authorities,
the Welsh Development Agency, the National Museums and Galleries
of Wales, Cadw, the National Trust, the Industrial Trust together
by the Wales Tourist Board to look at the whole of the south west,
not just the Valley areas to try and say we have got to do something
about our wonderful industrial heritage and take it to the world
and link it in with education and link it in with trying to raise
people's standards in the Valleys and their self- respect. The
people of South Wales Valleys, like many other parts of industrial
Britain, have had a pretty tough time over the years and it is
quite understandable that they lack a bit of self-respect and
self-confidence and we firmly believe in this way we can raise
their standards and raise their self-confidence because they are
wonderful people and they need that support.
323. But there is still a terrible infrastructure
problem. There are theatres dotted around everywhere but many
of these have terrible back stage facilities and terrible front
of house facilities and people have grown used to something that
they would not expect if they went to a foreign country to visit.
How do we raise people's sights on that, how do we make them become
more ambitious?
(Mr Jones) We have to have exemplar products. In your
own constituency of Taff you have an industrial heritage park
there which is an excellent example, then you have a UNESCO World
Heritage site in Blaenavon and you have a wonderful museum of
an old working mine. Those are exemplars and I think if we can
find people who are prepared to come forward because the public
sector cannot do this alone—the local authority or the Wales
Tourist Board or the Welsh Development Agency. You really need
some private finance coming forward. If we can find those people
prepared to invest we can certainly support them with capital
grants schemes.
(Mr Evans) I think it is important we do have this
incredible commitment. We are a strategic delivery mechanism.
We take the money from the taxpayer and we deliver, but our major
stakeholder is the people of Wales. We do not get involved in
political comment and heated discussion on what we are; we know
what we are. We are given our budget and I firmly believe, so
do my colleagues, that our principal stakeholder is the people
of Wales and to raise their prosperity is our ambition. We do
it through the vehicle of tourism, it is as simple as that. There
is no confused ambition.
324. Can I ask about Cardiff Airport because
we were talking about airports earlier. Many of my constituents
would not fly from Cardiff, they would probably fly from Bristol
because in many ways it is more convenient, it is easier to get
to. It is almost impossible to get by public transport to Cardiff
Airport and the road is miserable. Do you think there is any chance
of that changing over the coming years?
(Mr Jones) As Philip has just said, we had BMI Baby
coming into Cardiff. I have to say that the road infrastructure
was not a major consideration of theirs in deciding whether or
not to base their operations out of Cardiff. They were looking
at more commercial aspects in terms of the number of people that
could fly from a two hour radius from Cardiff and indeed looking
at the inward possibilities of flying people back into Cardiff.
All airports require good road infrastructure like you have to
Manchester, like you have in Birmingham, like you have in Heathrow
and Gatwick, and certainly if we had better roads and better public
transport in and out of Cardiff Airport it would make it easier
to encourage other aircraft to come in. I have to say that BMI
were not put off. We are confident they will make money out of
flying people out of Cardiff and flying people back into Cardiff.
Chairman
325. I thought that Cardiff Airport had become
the preferred entry point for Glasgow!
(Mr Webb) Only for Celtic supporters I think.
Mr Bryant
326. Can I just ask about this business about
marketing Wales. We were told that a lot of people in America
do not know where the UK is, they think it is somewhere in the
Middle East. What impression do Americans or any of the major
markets that you mentioned have of Wales and what impression are
you trying to give them in your marketing?
(Mr Jones) Certainly as far as the States is concerned
to call it one market is just too silly. It is made up of a vast
number of markets and we tend to concentrate our work on the North
East border and the West Coast, so you will probably find a lot
of people in Arizona and Kansas and Missouri who have never seen
anything from the Wales Tourist Board. You could say that is good
use of public funds because the market is not there for them.
We know that only 18% of Americans hold a passport and there is
no point in marketing to people who do not have passports. We
portray an image of Wales as a land of mystery and legend, talking
about the Arthurian legends, talking about the history and the
heritage and we find that goes down well with those Americans
whom we get to. Yes, of course you can find Americans who do not
know where Wales is, but, with respect, you can find Americans
who do not know where Cornwall or Devon or the Lake District or
even bits of London are.
327. Is it more important to market to them
in America or is that a complete waste of time and money? Would
you be better off spending money getting Americans to come to
Britain and then once they are here making sure that every single
American and Canadian and Italian who comes to Britain knows about
Wales?
(Mr Evans) If somebody is going to spend $10,000 or
$15,000 to "do Europe" it is very important you get
them at the decision-making process, consequently a lot of our
money is spent below the line, ie talking to journalists, bringing
journalists over. We pitched for the business against Nice and
won it and brought 400 American travel writers from the Society
of American Travel Writers into Wales last year and had them for
a week and two weeks on various schemes. It was of huge benefit
to us. It is guerilla marketing, if you like. We will look at
various ways of getting into the homes and getting into the lifestyles
of Americans to create an ambition to want to come and see Wales.
One of the great things that is now emerging is that Wales is
seen as a safe destination. We are probably not looked at as a
terrorist prospect. It is a hard fact but it is one that is very
important for Wales. We are seen as a very safe destination.
(Mr Jones) You have got to put yourself into the position
of the consumer here as well. If you were to go to New York or
Paris for a week, when you get there, what is the first thing
on your mind, is it to enjoy your time in Paris or New York or
to try and get out of the city? With respect, I suggest you have
got there and you want to enjoy it and you are not going to leave
that place until you have exhausted all the possibilities. You
have got to hit people with your marketing messages where they
take the decisions which is in their homes.
328. When Simon Glyn was going on a year ago
about incomers coming into Wales and living in Wales and not speaking
Welsh, do you think that did any harm to the impression of Wales
as a holiday destination for the English?
(Mr Evans) I do not think the message got overseas.
329. For the English?
(Mr Evans) There were border land issues that we had
to answer that we addressed quite successfully. It was taken as
an off-the-cuff comment, it was not taken as a serious comment
from the Wales Tourist Board. The ten million that always come
from Britain, predominantly from England, have not responded to
that message.
330. And that number remained the same this
year.
(Mr Jones) It is going up.
(Mr Evans) Tourist figures are 11% up this year.
Miss Kirkbride
331. There is not really much left to ask. I
am a big fan of Wales and we go at least three times a year to
Aberdyfi which is brilliant and a lot of the things we have taken
in there are excellent. I was a bit curious because the biggest
obstacle to going if I were not the Member of Parliament for Bromsgrove
is the sheer distance from London. How do you address that for
your primarily English audience that wants to come to Wales—(a)
getting there and (b) getting about when you get there? Is there
any strategy attached to helping that issue?
(Mr Evans) It is amazing because there are differences
of opinion. People love Wales because of the shortage of motorways,
people love the meandering country roads.
332. That helps.
(Mr Evans) We have now got passing bays and things
like that! A lot of people come to Wales purely because of the
lack of infrastructure. I agree with you totally, the biggest
problem you have got is going from south to north and north to
south. One of the most successful campaigns—and our new
campaign is "The Big Country" which is a very bold campaign—we
have been running is "Two hours and a Million Miles Away".
That was a successful campaign because it got into the lifestyle
of people saying that it is two hours and a million miles away
and it worked.
333. Do you have a strategy with train companies?
It is a long drive from London and when you get there you may
want to travel about a bit or go somewhere a bit more remote than
Cardiff. What can you do to attract more people?
(Mr Jones) We certainly work with the public transport
sector. It is wrong to say that you cannot get around Wales with
public transport, you just have to be a little more organised
and planned about it, and we work very hard in putting information
out which links train times with bus times. You can do it. A lot
of overseas visitors do it, because they do not like driving on
the "wrong" side of the road. 90% of all our tourists,
UK and overseas, are car-borne and therefore we have to ensure
they have appropriate road facilities. As Philip said, we have
the M4 coming into South Wales and of course it goes a lot further
than Cardiff, and we have the A55 which is a dual carriageway
now all the way to North Wales. Access to mid-Wales could certainly
be improved but the view is, once you are there, it is God's own
country, and the roads are brilliant and, dare I say, not too
full of tourists. It is a balance we have to maintain to keep
it full and empty at the same time.
334. It is very exciting you are getting the
Spaniards or Italians coming over to take shoulder holidays in
Wales—three or four days—is that based on the car?
How do you disperse them when they get there? Do you offer a fly-drive
package?
(Mr Jones) The majority of our overseas visitors from
mainland Europe are car-borne, they would come via ferries.
335. Spain is a long way by ferry.
(Mr Jones) Europeans drive a long way anyway.
Chairman
336. We are Europeans!
(Mr Jones) I beg your pardon. I meant Europeans on
the other side of the English Channel.
Miss Kirkbride
337. When they come in via Cardiff Airport on
the BMI Baby, how do they get dispersed?
(Mr Jones) That is where we are trying to put the
private sector on to this and putting packages together so they
can pick up a car, get discount vouchers for hotels not just in
Cardiff but go-as-you-please vouchers throughout the whole of
Wales. But that is the job of the private sector. We, in the public
sector, have done our job introducing BMI into Cardiff, the private
sector should be able to pick that up and make money from it.
338. Which European destination is at the top
of your list for these packages?
(Mr Jones) We are waiting now for BMI to tell us what
their consumer destinations are. Their winter destinations are
Malaga, Milan. We are looking probably for somewhere in France
and Germany to come up in the summer and then we will be selling
incoming fly-drive packages from there.
(Mr Evans) We would probably be the embryonic mechanism
within the industry. We will probably try and do marketing campaigns
on a 50-50 basis with the industry, and we will invest, and once
it is robust enough we will pull out.
339. Good luck!
(Mr Evans) Thank you very much.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed,
gentlemen. That is most interesting.
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