Examination of Witnesses(Questions 340-359)
MR TONY
WINTERBOTTOM AND
MR PERRY
PHILLIPS
TUESDAY 17 DECEMBER 2002
Chairman: Good morning, gentlemen. Does
London need any more tourists? I cannot get into this building
for the huge crowds of people—
Mr Bryant: Mobbing you!
Chairman
340. No, not my fans. Since the opening of the
Wheel, this whole area has become a huge tourist destination.
Wherever you go in London, the transport is crowded, both under
ground and above ground. So I ask you to begin with, does London
really need any more tourists?
(Mr Phillips) I was doing some Christmas shopping
last Saturday in Oxford Street and it was unbelievably crowded
so I can understand that as a human reaction. Tourists can be
rather a nuisance but one has to bear two things in mind. First
of all, the importance of tourism for the London economy, we are
talking about a very substantial contribution to employment and
economic activity and one which clearly has a potential for long-term
expansion. The kind of things you are talking about are in part
the result of a past failure to invest in infrastructure, things
like the tube, it is not the tourists' fault, it is a general
problem. Tourism managed in the right way has the potential to
contribute a great deal of the growth of London.
(Mr Winterbottom) I think your remarks are value judgments,
Chairman. That is an impressionistic view. We are starting to
look at the facts around the tourism industry in London and it
does have, I agree, crowded parts but it also has other areas
where perhaps with effort from the public sector, particularly
the LDA, we could get some of the benefits which flow from tourism,
and some of our strategies are trying to do that. There are two
other points I would like to raise in relation to this. London
has this role which we are only just beginning to understand;
it is quite complex. We have only really been involved in tourism
in the past two years. It is a destination for people who want
to visit the UK, so its role is an opening place for people who
come. This is quite important for other regions. This is something
we have to focus on. But there are also components of tourism
which just do not relate to numbers. For example, business tourism
is down since Foot and Mouth and September 11; the proportion
of people coming with spouses to conferences and so on, is a sector
of the market which is down. Perhaps my final point in relation
to the crowded nature of this area, is that really we have been
looking at the whole tourism and hospitality sector in a silo,
and the research which has been carried out in the Mayor's office
has shown if you truly link tourism and hospitality together,
which in London makes a great deal of sense, we have under-estimated
the importance of this sector in terms of employment, and it has
been said that it is the second-largest employment sector in London.
That throws up all sorts of problems about how you get people
involved in that sector, how do you train people, how do you get
them involved in the business. So I understand your personal concerns
and I am sorry about that, but actually we think it is quite important
that we keep a healthy flow of visitors to London.
Mr Bryant
341. One of the roles you have, officially I
think, is to be the gateway for the rest of the country.
(Mr Winterbottom) So we understand, yes.
342. That seems a fairly cynical approach to
it. I presume by your response you are not doing anything about
that?
(Mr Winterbottom) No, we are, but I do not think we
are doing quite the right thing. What we said in our evidence
was that when the Mayor took responsibility for tourism about
two years ago he delegated that to the London Development Agency,
and what we are trying to do is understand the remarks that we
are a gateway destination and therefore how we handle that gateway.
We are also a tourism agency in our own right and how do we handle
that. I understand we are a gateway; Perry will tell you all the
figures show we are a gateway, I am just not quite sure how we
handle that.
343. I am sorry but this seems a bit feeble,
to be honest, because London has had tourists since Edward the
Confessor started pilgrimages to Westminster Abbey 900 years ago,
so it is hardly a new facet of life in London. On the gateway
role, throughout all the discussions we have had when we had the
British Tourist Authority here, when we had the ministers here,
everybody has pointed out this is one of the most important issues
facing British tourism and the whole of the British tourist industry,
the role that London plays in making sure people do not just visit
Westminster and Camden but the whole of London and the whole of
the United Kingdom. I am a bit bewildered that you are saying,
"We do not know what we are doing about this."
(Mr Winterbottom) I did not say we do not know what
we are doing. We are looking at what we should be doing. We have
been told about the role and we understand the funding flows that
have gone previously into the London Tourist Board which do relate
to that gateway role. The London Tourist Board have played a part
in that gateway role but we do not think it is adequate and we
are looking into how we can improve it because it is important
for the nation.
344. So what elements are you going to look
at?
(Mr Winterbottom) We are looking at the whole function
and the way that the LTB operates right across the piece. We are
conducting a full review.
345. So when do you think that review will be
finished?
(Mr Winterbottom) I think we are expecting it will
be finished by the end of April but we expect the first evidence
of changes to take place before the end of January.
346. Just one other question, do you think London
is a rip-off for tourists?
(Mr Winterbottom) In part it is, but the market could
sort that out if we could get more business involved and get better
quality standards and so on. Then I think the market will sort
out the rip-off merchants.
(Mr Phillips) Can I put a slightly different perspective
on that. I do not see how London can possibly be a rip-off in
general given its huge popularity. There are specific sectors
where things could be done, for example the quality of some of
the hotels is not as good as it might be and there is clearly
an exchange rate problem. You have only got to talk to the majority
of continental Europeans to see they find London a very expensive
place. There is no doubt about that but that is largely an effect
of the weakness of the euro at the moment.
347. I agree somewhere can be expensive but
nonetheless be something you want.
(Mr Winterbottom) But it is value for money, I would
say.
348. Fine, but a rip-off is where tourists deliberately
have had extra money taken out of them more than is fair, either
because there is a cartel which is operating to make sure that
people do not get a good deal or because—and we have all
had it when we have been to Rome the moment they see a British
looking tourist coming along they charge them double.
(Mr Winterbottom) Yes, but the issue is what do we
do about that? I agree with that.
349. The issue is what do you do about that?
(Mr Winterbottom) We do not know the answer to that
question and those are some of the things we are looking at. If
you look at the amount of resource that has been put from the
public sector into tourism in London over the past few years it
is pitifully small and yet we have had an expectation on our Tourist
Board—and I have nothing to do with the Tourist Board except
we give them money now—to have a whole range of things that
they should take responsibility for, such as the quality of hotels,
such as having tourist information centres and a whole range of
other things but I really think the level of resource that has
been put into that has been totally inadequate. We understand
the aspirations, we agree with your aspirations. We are trying
to do something about it, but we have not done and the resources
are not very large.
Chairman: I have never been anywhere
in the world as a tourist where attempts have not been made to
rip me off. Indeed, both in Naples and Buenos Aires attempts were
made to rob me and only my courage prevented it.
Alan Keen
350. I am shattered by Mr Phillips' admission
that he started his Christmas shopping a week and a half before
Christmas; he is obviously a new man. I only start worrying about
it next week. I do not know what to ask you because you have not
had the time to find out how the problems are going to be solved
or even what the problems are. What questions can I ask you? What
can you tell us, can I put it that way?
(Mr Phillips) Can I just return a little to the gateway
problem or the gateway opportunities. One of the general problems
that we have is inadequate statistical material relating both
to the London tourism market and the linkages between London tourism
and the rest. In order to counter that we have recently set up
a major review of data sources and statistics just doing an audit
on what is available, trying to find gaps, and part of what we
would be looking at is this relationship between the broader United
Kingdom picture and London. It probably does strike you as rather
feeble that we do not know the answers to all these questions
but we realised that in general there were a lot of gaps so we
are trying to approach things in a very methodical way. Let's's
get the database and market intelligence so we know what we are
dealing with and then out of that a whole series of recommendations
for future action can be made.
351. It certainly shows there was a need for
a London-wide body. Taking a very parochial view, despite this
accent I represent an outer London constituency. We have some
great visitor attractions, Syon House, Syon Park, Osterley. You
have not had time to think about how you get visitors to come
and look at those places rather than stay in the centre of London.
(Mr Winterbottom) Perhaps I can just explain what
we are doing. It is early days and actually we do appreciate the
problems and I think we know some of the solutions. In relation
to how economic development is going to be delivered in London
or is being delivered at the moment, the LDA is working through
sub-regional partnerships because you cannot drive tourism or
any of the other business support services from the centre. I
am sure you agree with that. One of the things that we are doing
with our sub-regional partnerships is we are from 1 April next
year putting a requirement on them that apart from looking after
businesses in their area, working with the boroughs and other
people to ensure that businesses get support, and any investment
is brought into the area, we are specifically asking them to start
working with our new London Tourist Board to ensure that we have
a mechanism in place to draw people away from the centre into
places like Syon Park, and there are other places as well. There
are many other places in London where we think that that sort
of support can be given. We are quite bullish about that. Our
baptism of fire started on September 11 when we were asked by
the Mayor to try and set up an emergency fund to help London and
really that taught us all about the importance of places that
were not in the centre and one of the strategies of the London
Development Agency will be to try to encourage development of
ventures and visitor attractions in the outer boroughs.
352. Have you thought about the relaxation of
gambling laws that will be coming and whether we can have casinos
around Heathrow to draw people in who stay on one night on their
way to somewhere else?
(Mr Winterbottom) We have not but perhaps we should
and we will take note of that. We have not done.
Alan Keen: In Hounslow rather than Hillingdon,
if we can be really parochial. I cannot ask any more.
Chairman: You are so satisfied, Alan.
Derek Wyatt?
Derek Wyatt
353. When I go to Rome my phone turns on and
says welcome to Rome in English and then it tells me that tonight
where I am there is a two-for-one offer in a restaurant on my
phone and it says two-for-one offers on all sorts of tourist attractions
in Rome, yet nothing happens in London. What conversations have
you started with the 3G operators?
(Mr Winterbottom) We have not, as far as I know, started
direct conversations with the 3G operators. Can I just explain
what we are trying to do in terms of marketing London.
354. Only if it is relevant to this because
I have got a lot of other questions.
(Mr Winterbottom) It is because we think it is a package.
This sounds negative but it is positive. When you know you have
got a problem and you tackle it, it is quite positive. We do not
think London is best served on the internet. We think the two
things are connected. What that really means is we have got to
have joined-up activity with an organisation which is much broader
and wider than the existing tourist board so that we can focus
and do the type of thing that you are suggesting. Under our LTAG
(London Tourism Action Group) events scheduled last year we supported
the very ideas that you are talking about and indeed we are doing
it again. We have a Salt campaign which is supporting theatres
in January and February trying to get people to come when it is
quiet. We are also working with all the train operating companies
and they have got a whole range of offers. The next stage is we
have got to make sure that is well covered on the internet and
well covered through the mobile phone system. I agree with you,
we must take that on board.
355. Can I ask you about the airports inquiry
and the Green Paper from the Government. Have you tried to get
to Heathrow? You cannot get to Heathrow by car, it is a pointless
exercise. On Monday any time before 11 o'clock you will miss your
flight. How do we (a) make Heathrow more accessible for the incoming
and the outgoing people and (b) what relationship do you have
with the BAA given it is not within your purview? It is a complete
joke, it is not an international airport any more.
(Mr Phillips) It is splendidly accessible by the Heathrow
Express.
356. It is not.
(Mr Phillips) I find it is, I must say.
Mr Bryant
357. You cannot get a cab when you get to Paddington.
(Mr Winterbottom) I cannot argue with you, I am afraid.
I will answer the question about BAA.
Derek Wyatt
358. So here we are maybe being pushed into
an Olympic bid. The airport is a joke, Heathrow is a joke, it
is no longer an international airport. The system to get in and
out of London is a joke, the system inside London is a joke. You
are going to try and get 28,000 people to events in London where
the system does not work. What sort of thinking have you had,
or what sort of impact have you had, into the Olympic bid which
Ove Arup have put to the Cabinet?
(Mr Winterbottom) Ove Arup have not put anything to
the Cabinet—
359. Sorry, the BAA.
(Mr Winterbottom)—if they have, they will be
in serious trouble because I am the Director in the LDA responsible
for the Olympic bid, and in fact we commissioned Arup Associates
to do that work, and their job was to actually do a matter of
fact investigation about the efficacy and feasibility of bidding
for the Olympic Games.
Chairman: Excuse me, I am going to stop
any discussion about the Olympic bid because we will come back
to that on another occasion.
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