Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40
- 55)
WEDNESDAY 23 OCTOBER 2002
MR NEIL
MACGREGOR
AND MS
DAWN AUSTWICK,
OBE
40. Presumably, if you start to use another
large amount of space, then you will need more security people,
lighting, heating and everything.
(Mr MacGregor) Exactly.
41. Are you talking about transferring stuff
around the country permanently? Presumably if there is a museum
that is only using three-quarters of its space, it still has that
area covered for security purposes but they could take part of
your collection without any additional cost.
(Mr MacGregor) We have a number of discussions ongoing
at the moment; we are hoping to develop that. Clearly, we are
in discussion with a number of regional museums about what kinds
of collections they might like to have on long term because that
seems to us to be an obvious way to go. Again, the cost implications
of doing that are considerable.
42. I recall that the last time you came we
spent quite a bit of time at the British Museum in discussion
with directors of various departments and the Museum was talking
about having some sort of music in the evenings in some of the
spaces to attract the public in. Would you be able to charge for
that? Would that be something you would be able to charge for?
I made the suggestion at the time that maybe you should approach
Cecil Sharpe House, the centre of traditional folk music. Presumably
it was cost that stopped you from advancing in that direction?
(Mr MacGregor) We have been trying to develop evening
programmes exactly along the lines you were saying and we can
certainly charge for quite a lot of them. There is no doubt about
that. The difficulty at the moment is opening parts of museums
and security because of course the museum has to be refigured
to allow us to open easily particular sections and the security
costs are considerable. Again, the capital investment would allow
us to use the place much more effectively. You are quite right
on the kind of programme that we want to develop.
Chairman
43. There was a fabulous concert in the forecourt;
it was a wonderful event. I do not know what you would have done
if it had rained!
(Mr MacGregor) We had a large public concert in the
forecourt. We know that, if we organise these events, there is
an enormous public for them. Obviously to organise them you need
amazing resource.
Alan Keen
44. Have you been brave enough to go to Treasury
and ask for money to enable you to carry on and say, "If
we spent this much more money", just like a commercial company
would say, "If we invested this sort of money, this is what
we would get for it"?
(Mr MacGregor) That is precisely what we are preparing.
I am rather nervous about speaking in this way, but what we are
proposing is exactly that kind of business plan because it is
clearly the right argument that this investment would deliver
these results, whether it is in education or regional policy or
the use of the Museum and the income generation.
Mr Flook: First of all, I think it would
be outrageous if working people had to pay to go to the Museum
in the evening.
Ms Shipley: I did not suggest it.
Mr Flook: The hours that Members of Parliament
work—
Ms Shipley: I did not suggest it.
Mr Flook
45. In response to Chris Bryant you said what
I thought is a lovely phrase, "the collective memory of mankind".
I notice that you are Chairman of the UNESCO Advisory Group of
the Hermitage in St Petersburg. What pitfalls or lessons do you
think you could learn from them and you might like to bring in
that you are also a trustee of the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam?.
(Mr MacGregor) If I can start with the Rijksmuseum
because Amsterdam is a much clearer parallel. The director and
staff of the Rijksmuseum would do anything towards free admission.
They feel it is their major impediment to reaching the Dutch public
more effectively than they do already and they regard that as
the great achievement of the British Museum system. I think there
is no greater way of reaching a regular local public. With the
Hermitage, I think the great lesson is that the Russian Government
have understood the key worth of the Hermitage in tourism, that
one of the reasons people go to St Petersburg is because of the
museum. They have invested very, very heavily in circumstances
even more difficult than our own Government's in the museum realising
that the cultural patrimony of St Petersburg is why people go
there and I think that is the lesson that we could usefully draw.
People do not come to London for the weather or the transport
system, they come for the culture.
46. To what extent do you think our Government
recognise, to use another one of your phrases, that the British
Museum is the world service for museums?
(Mr MacGregor) I do not know and that is the question
you need to put to the Secretary of State. I think that like the
World Service, it is unique and admired everywhere and I think
that, like the World Service, the funding of it is always a matter
of contention. We talked about other departments and I think it
is worth pointing out that the Museum plays a very important part
in diplomatic relations, so as well as the Department of Education
and Skills, it would also be very proper for the Commonwealth
Office to recognise what the Museum does. The Korean Governments,
for instance, we were given some extra funding to keep the gallery
open next year, as you know—North and South Korea actually
co-operated in presenting cultural developments here. Our relations
with China and Afghanistan and the Middle East are absolutely
crucial to their perception of Britain and I think that is something
which should be mentioned.
Mr Flook: Mr Bryant mentioned Greece,
but we do not wish to go there!
Miss Kirkbride
47. I think you have put together a very good
case for protecting all of our inheritance and I suspect that
my fellow Committee Members agree. I specifically wanted to ask
you one question which is that I know that our present Government
force you to produce sociological statistics in order to justify
your funding and I am fascinated as to what pertinent questions
you ask your visitors about who they are. What do you ask them?
(Mr MacGregor) We ask them the usual MORI questions
about income and—
48. Income, your visitors?
(Ms Austwick) Twice a year we undertake a MORI survey
of a sample of visitors.
49. So someone stands at the door and asks,
"How much do you earn?"
(Ms Austwick) Yes. This is standard practice of course
in national museums.
50. What kind of response do you get to it?
Are people quite relaxed?
(Mr MacGregor) Quite relaxed. On the whole, if people
stop to answer anyway, then they have agreed to do it.
Michael Fabricant
51. Is there a note of how many people tell
you to "get stuffed"?
(Mr MacGregor) Sadly, no. We ask about the management
categories and about the areas of work and then the Census categories
are the categories we employ. Most people who tell us to "get
stuffed" do not get asked the questions.
Miss Kirkbride
52. They are asked to put their occupation down
and you then categorise them?
(Mr MacGregor) Yes.
Miss Kirkbride: Welcome to the nanny
state!
Mr Thurso
53. It is very clear from your evidence this
morning that the real critical issue is funding. Have you had
a chance to digest the announcement made yesterday of £70
million more cash for museums which, if you read the small print,
it turns out to be more like £40 million, and there is a
small phrase which says, "Additional funding will also go
to the British Museum." Have you had a chance to find out
what is in that and whether it is another drop in the ocean or
whether it is actually something very significant?
(Mr MacGregor) I think the straight answer is that
there is not really very much to digest, I am afraid, for the
British Museum. The increase obviously is welcome. It is a very
modest increase. It is hard to know what rate of inflation the
Department is projecting inside those increases—and it is
stated as I have seen—and the extra figure for year three,
again the crucial thing is what the rate of inflation is going
to be. It certainly does not appear to take account of the extra
allocations of Treasure Act or of the projects we would like to
achieve in education and regional policy.
54. So it would be fair to say that the rather
self-congratulatory tone of the department announcement is misplaced?
(Mr MacGregor) We all do put the best gloss we can
on what we do! There is extra money and that is obviously very
good news. I think it would be churlish to say that it is not
good news and it would be churlish to deny that there is extra
money. However, I do not think it allows us to deliver to the
public the museum they deserve.
55. So it is still inadequate?
(Mr MacGregor) Yes.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
That was most helpful and interesting.
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