Examination of Witnesses (Questions 111
- 119)
WEDNESDAY 23 OCTOBER 2002
RT HON
TESSA JOWELL,
RT HON
BARONESS BLACKSTONE
AND MR
RICHARD HARTMAN
Michael Fabricant
111. We were just having a very interesting
discussion with the Natural History Museum, and I was asking them
about the sort of people who visit, since their recent change
to free admission. They were saying earlier on that, as one might
expect, the amount of time spent per person has been reduced slightly
since free admission—you would expect that—and the
amount of money spent per person has reduced slightly—and
that you would expect—but what one would not have expected
is that the number of C2, Ds and Es coming along to the Natural
History Museum has also reduced, and far from broadening, as one
might have expected, the profile of people who visit the museum
since free admission, it has in fact narrowed. I wonder whether
you think this has almost destroyed the whole raison d'être
of free admission.
(Tessa Jowell) Chairman, can I begin
by introducing our colleague, Richard Hartman, who is the lead
official in the Department, and say how pleased we are to be here
on the day after we announced the funding settlement for the national
museums and galleries to answer your questions. That is an important
question. I was just checking the figures in my brief, and the
Natural History Museum is the only one of our national museums
and galleries which since free entry became universal at the beginning
of December last year has seen a reduction in people from social
class C2, D and E. You are absolutely right that this is a cause
for concern. It does not appear to be the trend in other museums
and galleries, where there has been an increase in the number
of people from social class C2 and D and E attending. We are ten
months into free entry, and clearly beginning to change the profile
of the visiting population will take time, but obviously we will
study carefully the figures in relation to the Natural History
Museum. It links to the capacity for outreach work, for work in
schools, building educational programmes, lifelong learning and
so forth, in addition to simple practical issues of accessibility.
I was at the Natural History Museum yesterday for the opening
of the Darwin Centre, and it was fantastically exciting to see
on the one hand such a large number of people from the very wide
range of backgrounds and from all over the country—it is
half-term so the visitor numbers were high—but also to celebrate
the opening of a scientific resource which will lead the world
in not just the capacity of its scientists but also the capacity
of its facilities.
112. Just in relation to that, by the way, some
historians feel that Charles Darwin got most of his ideas from
his grandfather, Erasmus Darwin. I happen to live next door to
the home of Erasmus Darwin, which this Committee has visited,
and I hope you, Secretary of State, may come up not just to visit
my home but also the home of Erasmus Darwin, which has an excellent
museum in connection with that.
(Tessa Jowell) That would always be a pleasure, Chairman.
113. Can we move to the question of the British
Museum. We know they have had their problems. They have a £6
million cash deficit and so on. Are you aware that a spokesman
in the Treasury, which, as you know, refused to assist the British
Museum to a large degree, commented, "The Treasury rewards
excellence and not incompetence." Do you think that the British
Museum has been incompetent?
(Tessa Jowell) No, I do not think the British Museum
has been incompetent. I think that the new regime at the British
Museum, as no doubt you have already heard this morning, is a
source of very great confidence. I think there certainly have
been difficulties in the past that the museum has faced, in part
due to the greater than anticipated costs of the Great Court development
and the impact on visitor numbers at the museum and the dramatic
reduction in American visitors particularly after September 11.
The British Museum is unique among our museums and galleries as
being one which has more visitors from outside the UK than from
the UK, so it has undoubtedly been hard-hit by that. That said—and
Tessa Blackstone may want to add to this—there are very
clearly areas in which the operation of the British Museum needs
reform: staffing numbers, working practices, and ensuring that
the deficit that might arise were the British Museum to continue
spending at its present rate until the end of this Settlement
Round should not arise. We have made an allocation as part of
the settlement that we announced yesterday in order to deal with
the threat of their having to close the Korean Galleries, and
we hope that that problem has now been settled. They have substantial
capital receipts that I know the Director and the Chairman intend
to use to fund the restructuring of the staffing of the museum
but also to undertake other aspects of modernisation.
114. Are you sure about that last point? As
I understand it, the sale of the capital items that they own,
including this place in New Oxford Street, can only be used for
capital expenditure and not resource expenditure. If that is the
case, that will not assist in the point that you just made, the
question of staffing.
(Tessa Jowell) Yes, but they will be able to re-profile
some of their self-generated income.
115. Could you clarify that?
(Mr Hartman) The British Museum will be able to re-profile
some of its self-generated income in order to pay for the reform.
116. Through capital expenditure?
(Mr Hartman) Yes. It will be able to use the capital
for purposes which it would otherwise have used self-generated
income, so thus it will be able to divert the self-generated income
into paying for the reforms.
117. Would you welcome greater flexibility?
Would you welcome a possibility, I believe recommended by this
Committee—not that I am going to suggest the sale of the
family silver—of the ability for museums—not just
the British Museum but other museums—to have a greater transfer
between capital and resource expenditure, sometimes by selling
off capital items, not necessarily exhibits, and using it not
just to re-invest, re-profile, but maybe to use it as resource
expenditure in the short term, as businesses do?
(Tessa Jowell) As you will have heard from the British
Museum this morning, they do need the flexibility in order to
be able to restructure, and the plans for that restructuring I
think are well defined. Neil MacGregor, as the new Director of
the museum, has already embarked on the first stage of that programme.
Yes, I think museums and galleries should earn maximum flexibility
on the basis of the evidence of their competence and their performance.
Mr Doran
118. Can I continue with the British Museum,
because there is a certain sense in their submission and the evidence
we heard this morning that by sticking to their principles of
free entry, first of all they lost quite a substantial sum of
money—they estimate as much as £100 million in various
elements that have been affected—but also they are getting
no help now, as are the other museums that charge. So they effectively
feel as though they are being punished for sticking by their principles.
How do you respond to that charge?
(Tessa Jowell) I know that it is an argument that
they often make, but I do not think that it is a fair charge,
and the British Museum have been compensated and have seen an
increase in their baseline.
119. In terms of the loss it is a relatively
modest increase.
(Tessa Jowell) In 1999-2000 they saw an increase of
£1 million in their baseline in recognition of the costs
of increased visitor numbers arising, and secondly they also qualified
for the first time for the VAT rebate, which is estimated to be
worth about £750,000 to them.
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