Examination of Witnesses (Questions 140
- 150)
WEDNESDAY 23 OCTOBER 2002
RT HON
TESSA JOWELL,
RT HON
BARONESS BLACKSTONE
AND MR
RICHARD HARTMAN
Alan Keen
140. I am very much in agreement with Frank
and John Thurso. You have hopefully convinced me that we have
moved far enough on from the one year funding. The three year
rolling programme is a massive improvement, particularly for those
who work in the private sector who were horrified by the Government
sticking to that system for so many years. We have moved on. I
do not think we are satisfied we have gone far enough. The new
Government has not been in for more than five years so there is
time to continue the improvement. Can I take a slight step further
forward. Obviously there have to be experts in the Treasury, and
we understand how it is in Number 10 as well, on culture, media
and sport issues. How much duplication is there in experts? It
is important that the Treasury does have somebody who understands
the philosophy of museums and galleries. Do you meet on a constructive
basis with people from Number 10 and the Treasury to discuss the
overall strategy and philosophy of these things or are they all
separate, being critics of each other. How does it work?
(Tessa Jowell) The recent spending round is perhaps
the best example. There is a lot of dialogue between my Department
and the Treasury and there has been a lot of dialogue over recent
months as we have navigated our way, and other departments have
to, to the settlement which the Chancellor announced in the summer.
The expertise differs as you would expect in different departments.
My Department has a number of people who are experts in the business
of curation and the management of collections who are, if you
like, the guardians and the advocates of the cultural case for
investment in museums and galleries. We have also been working
very closely with the Treasury on the case for reforming the administration
of museums and the galleries in order to minimise the bureaucracy
and red tape, to put it crudely, and maximise the earned autonomy
of museums and galleries in the confidence that they are committed
to and have the capacity to deliver the government objectives
that they have been funded to deliver. There is a lot of dialogue
and in the run up to the announcement of the spending round there
was a lot of discussion about the broad level of funding that
would be necessary in order to maintain the three essential core
priorities that I outlined earlier. I think that there is an increasing
understanding and commitment in my Department to value-for-money
transparency and structuring the regime within museums and galleries
in such a way that they have a commitment to the government's
priorities and the capacity to deliver them.
Alan Keen: Thank you.
Miss Kirkbride
141. I was interested to hear the Secretary
of State enjoyed her visit yesterday to the Darwin Centre and
I wonder whether she wanted to reflect on the fact that that creation
was possible, along with other new exciting exhibitions, at the
National History Museum during a period when they did actually
charge for some of the time for admission and that that growth
was possibly due to the increase in income that that permitted?
(Tessa Jowell) The National History Museum and other
national museums look to a range of different sponsorship. As
I already indicated the income they lost through charging they
have been compensated for. I think it is very important to be
clear about that. They were compensated in the last spending round.
This year £29 million has been allocated in order to meet
the cost of free entry, and that will continue. It one of the
most successful policies. I think Chris Bryant said it is a policy
that we are 100 per cent committed to continue. Yes, museums,
like the National History Museum, have looked to the Lottery for
funding, they have looked to private sponsorship and beyond that.
I know that is a process in which they are now engaged in seeking
to put together a funding package for the Darwin Centre phase
two, 2.1 million capital in each year, and we have allocated and
announced 2 million yesterday.
142. Have you had any discussion with the Treasury
about allowing museums to borrow money?
(Tessa Jowell) We have not as part of this spending
round, no.
143. Do you intend to? What is your view on
this issue?
(Tessa Jowell) I think that it is important that we
keep the overall spend for which government is responsible and
which can be sustained by the trustees within a manageable and
affordable cap. There is no intention to change the financial
regime of museums and galleries so that they can borrow off balance
sheet.
144. Looking at the British museums, whilst
taking completely on board their need to reform, it was also put
to us, and I think very relevantly, that they now have a great
deal of extra space due to the British Library being removed and
really if they are to be the trustees, not just of the nation's
heritage which is in that museum, which is the world's heritage,
which is in that museum fortuitously as a result of Britain's
past history, then it really needs to be able to have access to
more capital to make that extra space work and actually in global
terms to justify the collections that they have because, as you
will be aware, there is a great deal of pressure on the United
Kingdom to hand back some of its collections. How much does the
government, with all due recognition of the need for reform of
their working practice, see the need for extra capital if the
British Museum is to justify its present position and it collections?
(Tessa Jowell) We have not made an additional capital
allocation to the British Museum in view of the fact that they
have just secured 35 million in capital receipt from the sale
of the post office just off New Oxford Street. We expect them
to begin manage their capital needs within what is a pretty substantial
additional capital fund.
145. That is it then. There is zero for 2004
and 2005 and it will remain zero because of that?
(Tessa Jowell) We have no further capital resource
from my Department's capital allocation available to them, no.
146. Going back on what you said about the Renaissance
of the Regions, obviously it would be very nice to have more
things displayed out and about in the country but presumably the
public will have to pay to go and see them. Where they are not
in the National Gallery but they are in a regional gallery belonging
to the national collection you will still have to pay to enter
those museums and there will be a resistance because of the anomaly
that now exists between the national collections and other collections?
(Tessa Jowell) Not all of the national collections
are in London, there are smaller galleries and museums—
147. There are a lot of very good museums around
the country who find it very hard to manage because they have
competition from the national collection.
(Tessa Jowell) With the investment we announced yesterday
they will be able to, (a) increase the range of their collection
and (b) also be in a position to improve, in a number of cases,
the quality and condition of their premises. There are significant
numbers of regional museums that are not particularly appealing
places to visit, which is why we were so keen to support the rationalisation
and the hub of the satellite structure as a way of achieving that
rationalisation that was proposed by the Renaissance in the
Regions. You are absolutely right, there will be different
charging regimes in different parts of the country.
148. Was there no consideration given to creating
a mixed picture, as used to exist amongst the national galleries,
whereby there is some free time and there is some paid time in
the museums which presently do not benefit from being free altogether.
There is a huge problem building up between those galleries that
are free and those which are not which is depressing the opportunities
of those which are not free, and because of the competition the
government has created a very unfair market in the museum world
by this decision?
(Tessa Jowell) I certainly do not see it like that.
I do not think that the 60 per cent increase in visitor numbers
reflects an unfair market.
149. For some!
(Tessa Jowell) People travel to London, they travel
to the now free museums and galleries in Liverpool, in Salford
and in Cornwall. Yes, there are different charging regimes and
I would not want to raise hopes that in the short-term we are
going to be in a position to do very much to change that. Chairman,
certainly if the Committee makes proposals along the lines of
those made by the Member for Bromsgrove—
150. We have a museum as well.
(Tessa Jowell)—we would look at those and would
want resource as the body that will disperse this money to look
at those proposals closely too.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
I think that everyone will agree this has been a most useful session.
We are most grateful to you. Thank you.
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