Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
THURSDAY 27 FEBRUARY 2003
DR BRYAN
WELLS, COLONEL
PHILIP ROUSE
AND MS
KATE SMITH
60. How are the personnel trained to do these
kinds of inspections?
(Colonel Rouse) The personnel who escort inbound inspections
into this country and undertake the outbound inspections to other
states' parties are part of the Joint Arms Control Implementation
Group, JACIG, at Henlow. It is a tri-service organisation, 77
strong, I think. They are organised into four inspecting flights
or teams, each of nine strong, each flight or team headed up by
a Lieutenant Colonel or Wing Commander equivalent. They have a
linguistic section as well so they have Russian speakers there.
JACIG is tasked and organised to undertake both the inbound inspections
and the outbound inspections. Training takes place at JACIG. They
train themselves both on the detail of the treaties and also on
the protocols and the conduct of inspections. It has been running
for 10 years and it works extremely well. They are a very professional
organisation.
61. What happens if they find something outside
their treaty responsibilities? If you are looking for something
hidden and suddenly you come across something and you think this
may not be within the CFE treaty but it must come under some other
treaty that we are a signatory to, has that ever cropped up?
(Dr Wells) To my knowledge, that has not cropped up.
If such items were found it could be reported to the appropriate
international body that monitored compliance with the relevant
treaty.
62. Would they be empowered to do that?
(Dr Wells) I believe so.
Rachel Squire
63. Picking up on the section VIII challenge
inspections, you have already mentioned some of the restrictions
and the maximum size of the area has to be 65 square kilometres.
What is the notice period? You say it has to be 36 hours' notice
for section VII; is it the same notice period for section VIII?
(Dr Wells) Yes, it is.
64. What constraints are there on other states
in trying to define the specified areas in the UK that they wish
to inspect? You have said it must be a maximum of 65 square kilometres
and take no more than 24 hours. What other constraints are there
on another state coming in to do a section VIII challenge inspection,
about where they can go and the sites they can choose?
(Dr Wells) There have been no recent section VIII
inspections on the UK. There have been section VIII inspections
in Germany, I believe. Those criteria that I have laid out are
essentially the criteria that a visiting state must undertake
and fulfil together with various stipulations on the points of
entry and so on.
65. Do the challenge inspections come about
because another state tries to imply that there is some non-compliance
and therefore asks to visit a particular site to check that out?
(Dr Wells) Yes. The issue would be whether there was
treaty limited equipment outside of the declared sites. A specified
area that would be subject to a challenge inspection could be
anywhere on the territory, but the declared sites would be excluded
from a section VIII inspection. The objective there is to see
whether there is any treaty limited equipment that is not being
held in a declared site.
66. On that basis, could they say, for instance,
that they want to visit Westminster or an inner city area, as
opposed to somewhere like Salisbury Plain, where there is military
activity constantly?
(Dr Wells) In theory they could do but equally in
terms of the access they can have they can only enter buildings
which have doors wider than two metres. That clearly limits some
of the places that could be inspected in inner cities.
Rachel Squire: What is the significance of wider
than two metres? Is that the smallest size?
Chairman: I am sure that is going to
appear in the next edition of The Officer!
Rachel Squire
67. Is that the smallest size of an armed vehicle?
(Dr Wells) The thinking behind it is to do with dimensions
of treaty limited equipment, yes.
68. In respect to the section VIII regime, have
you had to exercise your powers? You say there has not been a
section VIII challenge inspection in the UK for some time but
in the past when you have had to exercise your powers to insist
that private owners make their land and property available for
inspection—for instance, a private owner could be a company
running a dockyard or a workshop or private individuals with a
large expanse of land—have you ever had to deal with private
owners and how have you managed that?
(Dr Wells) Under section VIII inspections, the original
Arms Control Bill, the Act of 1991, did provide for access to
private properties in the UK. Inspection teams in the past have
confined themselves to military installations in the specified
areas but for all section VIII inspections a police officer does
accompany the escort team with a warrant drawn up under the 1991
Act should entry to private property be required.
Chairman
69. Could that be an MoD policeman or does it
have to be a county constabulary one?
(Colonel Rouse) I think it is normally a county constabulary
one. It would not be an MoD policeman, I do not believe.
70. What if the guy says, "I do not want
you to look around my farm"? Maybe a farmer would have something
he does not want the police to look at which may not be an item
within the CFE treaty. I can imagine all sorts of things.
(Dr Wells) The police officer is there with a warrant.
The inspecting team would do the inspection.
Mr Cran
71. I wondered if you could set out in rather
more detail the rights of private owners under the current regime.
You say the police come along with a warrant. Can an individual
refuse?
(Dr Wells) Under the current Act which has been passed
by Parliament, if an inspection team under a section VIII inspection
does wish to exercise the treaty rights of inspecting private
property, subject to the size of the door, the policeman has a
warrant and the inspectors are entitled to enter.
72. The private individual has absolutely no
rights at all under these provisions?
(Dr Wells) I would not have gone so far as to say
they have no rights but—
73. If they have rights, please enumerate the
ones that they do have.
(Colonel Rouse) The circumstances under which an inspecting
team might wish to enter a private owner's property are very,
very rare. These inspections are conducted in the spirit of the
treaty and the inspections do take place on military installations
rather than private land. Yes, in theory, an inspecting team could
under a Section VIII inspection go into private land. In practice,
these things tend to be handled very sensitively on the ground
and if there is clearly a situation developing in which a private
owner has difficulty with what he or she is being asked to do,
then the JCIG inspector would take the appropriate action and
if the JCIG inspecting team leader felt that right of access needed
to be refused, then he or she could do so. There is a certain
pragmatism.
74. I do not understand, he or she could do
what?
(Colonel Rouse) Should a situation develop on the
ground where a private owner objects then the escort team leader
from JCIG could deny access to the inspecting team and by doing
that could possibly incur an observation by the inspecting team
but it would be within the JCIG escort team leader's right to
do that if he felt that an unwelcome situation needed to be avoided.
75. Where is all this set out, that is to say
that the inspecting officer can indeed weigh in on behalf of the
objecting private owner? Where is that all set out, in the Bill?
(Colonel Rouse) It is not set out in the Bill, no.
76. Where is it set out?
(Colonel Rouse) I do not know the answer to that but
I do understand that to be normal practice.
77. But should you not know that? I take entirely
the point you are making which is most, if not all, of the inspections
take place in military establishments and military land and so
on but things are not static. In future it may well be the case
that you could not say no and it may well be the case that inspections
will take place on private land and therefore it seems right that
the individual should know what his or her rights happen to be
and where they are set out and codified. Are you really telling
me you do not know where they are set out?
(Colonel Rouse) The training that the JCIG—
78. No, I want to be clear from you that you
do not know.
(Colonel Rouse) I am saying I am unclear about where
it is laid out.
Chairman
79. Could you drop us a note?
(Colonel Rouse) Certainly.
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