Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-112)
THURSDAY 27 FEBRUARY 2003
DR BRYAN
WELLS, COLONEL
PHILIP ROUSE
AND MS
KATE SMITH
Chairman
100. Following on from that, NATO does not inspect
each other, so does that mean NATO members who are not part of
the integrated military structure, or NATO members who are only
part of the political structure now. A purely abstract question—
(Dr Wells) It is the NATO 19, Chairman, so it includes
all the allies.
101.—A purely hypothetical question; could
anybody mount a challenge inspection on Turkey in the event of
having items of military equipment in preparation for an attack
on Iraq?
(Dr Wells) Not all of the territory of Turkey is covered.
102. What about Incirlik? I am sorry to ask
a trick question. What I am coming to is would that be covered
by the Treaty?
(Dr Wells) I could not say whether Incirlik was inside
or outside the CFE area.
Chairman: Could you drop us a note in due course
because it does raise a relevant question as to the rights of
members of the Treaty to inspect. James?
Mr Cran
103. Moving on to Russia's equipment holdings
in the CFE Treaty Flank zone, how many inspections have been carried
out and how many refused since the 1999 Adaptation Agreement?
(Dr Wells) We are looking for the figures.
(Colonel Rouse) Carried out by the United Kingdom
in the Flank?
104. By the United Kingdom or other countries
with which we are associated, you choose your ground.
(Colonel Rouse) I do not believe I can give you today
a figure for United Kingdom inspections. There have been inspections
into the Flank by the United Kingdom, both normal inspections
under Section VII and Section VIII and also in support of the
NATO initiative, to verify whether or not Russia is in compliance
with its Flank limits, but the exact figure I cannot give you
today but we can provide you with a note. Would you also like
to have the figure for other NATO allies as well?
105. Yes please. Again I think I am correct
in saying that in your memorandum you say Russia has refused to
provide details of equipment "temporarily located" in
the Flank. Is this because the Adaptation Agreement is not yet
ratified or is it just non-co-operation that we had in the past
and you would expect in the future? Why is that?
(Colonel Rouse) A difficult one. I think possibly
it is because they are just being awkward, quite frankly, it is
as simple as that.
106. That is not good enough, come on, we must
tease out what that means. What we are really trying to get from
you is have you any feel for whether this non-co-operation is
something which we might have understood in the past but we might
not understand into the future? Is it going to occur in the future?
(Dr Wells) It is fair to say—
107. And what are you doing about it?
(Dr Wells) Since 2000 NATO allies have been able to
undertake inspections in the Flank, with the exception of the
position in Chechnya, and NATO has been able to come to an estimate
of the Treaty-limited equipment holdings in Chechnya. So we are
getting visibility of the Russian holdings of Treaty-limited equipment
in the flank.
Rachel Squire: Transparency is still
quite some way away when it comes to Russia's actual equipment?
Mr Cran
108. Just one more question. Has the lack of
a ratified Adaptation Agreement reduced the number of inspections
that the UK or any other country has conducted in Chechnya?
(Dr Wells) Pardon?
109. I will read the question again but this
time I will read it rather more slowly. Has the lack of a ratified
Adaptation Agreement reduced the number of inspections that the
UK or other countries have been able to conduct in Chechnya?
(Dr Wells) We have not been able to conduct formal
CFE inspections in Chechnya because of the security situation
there. What we have been able to do is to come to an estimate
of the holdings of Treaty-limited equipment there by undertaking
inspections of units that are believed to have Treaty-limited
equipment in Chechnya but are not themselves based in Chechnya,
and by looking at the level of current holdings we can come to
an estimate of the extent of Treaty-limited equipment holdings
in Chechnya. It is not a formal inspection but it allows us to
arrive at an estimate.
110. Who are you referring to when you use "us"
and "we", the United Kingdom or the United Kingdom and
its NATO allies?
(Dr Wells) It has been a programme undertaken by NATO
allies.
Chairman: As a last question, with your
difficult lives you emerge far better than a group we had 10 years
ago when our Chairman asked very pointedly how many tanks and
aircraft we had in Germany. The senior Ministry of Defence witness
now retired, I will not tell you his name but R J are his initials,
said that he was not at liberty to tell us. Our Chairman asked
Roger Jackling, and I fully agreed with this: "Are we a signatory
to the CFE Treaty?" At that moment Mr Jackling knew he had
been hooked: . "Yes." "Are we compliant with that
Treaty?": "Yes." "Have we disclosed this information
to the Warsaw Treaty Organisation?": "Yes." "Let
me get my head around this. You have disclosed information to
our adversaries which you are not prepared to disclose to a Committee
of the House of Commons?" It was very funny but a very serious
point and we appreciate you have been, by the standards of the
MoD and Foreign Office, remarkably forthcoming. Before I finish
my colleague is anxious to ask one further devastating, killer
question.
Mr Knight
111. I just note that in the Bill the Act extends
to Northern Ireland. Does the current inspection regime extend
to Northern Ireland? If so, have they always been able to go ahead
without any problem and have we never had cause to refuse them
on grounds of security of numbers and so on?
(Colonel Rouse) That is correct. In fact, there was
an inspection last year into Scotland. The Unit inspected in Scotland
was a Royal Artillery unit which had a deployed sub-unit in Northern
Ireland. It was a Russian inspection and they chose to go into
Northern Ireland, and it has happened before. There are procedures
in place. Clearly there is a security angle because we the United
Kingdom have a responsibility to ensure the security of the inspecting
team. But the answer to your question is, yes, there have been
inspections to Northern Ireland.
112. You have never refused one because of security
grounds?
(Colonel Rouse) Not so far as I am aware,
no.
Chairman: Thank you very much.
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