Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200-219)
WEDNESDAY 26 MARCH 2003
MR ROGER
CHING, MS
SHEILA CLARK,
CAPTAIN MARTIN
PUTMAN, CHIEF
CONSTABLE PAUL
KERNAGHAN QPM, MR
RICHARD MAWSON,
COMMODORE AMJAD
HUSSAIN, MR
MALCOLM EASTWOOD
AND MAJOR
SIMON ANDREWS
200. How well equipped are you for communicating
with each other? We in our report referred to communications equipment
that I think the Fire Service wanted to opt out of. When is this
kit going to come in and are you going to communicate across and
down in any way that you think you will be required to do?
(Mr Eastwood) That is a very good question in respect
of the communications element. We fought for a long time to get
funding. The Police did receive funding from central government
in respect of the Airwave project. There was no indication we
were going to get funding and we pushed it through our professional
body. We are still awaiting confirmation in respect of that. You
must be aware that the Police have taken on board Airwave and
it is an out-to-tender situation and Airwave may or may not win
the tender. We will wait and see. There will be a communications
aspect in the specification where we have got inter-operability,
a term I am sure you are very aware of in terms of your previous
inquiry. There is more need for fire-fire and police-police communication
than for me to be able to talk to individual colleagues. If we
want to do that we get together round the Gold, Silver and Bronze
Commander type environment. I am quite convinced that the communications
network will be in place.
201. If the MoD offer you surplus Clansman kits,
please decline.
(Commodore Hussain) That is a tad unkind, Chairman.
Patrick Mercer
202. We have touched on this already to a certain
extent but if an emergency of a sufficient scale comes upon you,
where are your reinforcements going to come from and how are you
going to deal with it?
(Mr Kernaghan) Let's pick Portsmouth for example,
initially, depending on the scale, I would mutually reinforce
Portsmouth from the Greater Hampshire Constabulary family. At
a certain tier of response or because of limited capability for
CBRN, I would then go to my colleagues initially in surrounding
counties and then there would be a ripple effect and theoretically,
I stress the theory, I could see people from Strathclyde reporting
for duty in Portsmouth if we were dealing with that level of disaster
or emergency. In essence, you look after it and you get a better
grip on the situation, you go to mutual aid and we are geared
up, Richard made the point, and we have standardised equipment
in terms of the police as well for chemical and biological so
every force has a capability of be it one, two or three police
support units. I would simply task them and they would be despatched
down here to assist my officers in dealing with the problem.
203. In this emergency and assuming you can
get all of your trained personnel, and I appreciate some will
be on leave, how many CBRN trained officers can you put on the
spot in short order from within your own command?
(Mr Kernaghan) Let's be realistic and honest, it would
take me six hours and I would have a maximum of 50 officers and
that is my capability, that is it. I will defer to other people
more qualified than I am, and you may have that knowledge yourself,
but there is a limit to the amount of work people can do in full
personal protective equipment. When my 40 or 50 officers have
done their term of duty there is not another group of Hampshire
officers to replace them. I would have to look to mutual aid.
It really does reduce their capability.
204. Can I ask the same question of Mr Eastwood.
(Mr Eastwood) The same thing, we have a cascade arrangement
nationally where we can bring resources in from anywhere in the
country. In respect of the resources we have got trained, the
majority of our personnel are trained in civil defence aspects.
You have got people going forward dealing with the actual incident
themselves and you have got people working at the tactical and
strategic level. You have a sliding scale in respect of numbers
of them. As Paul said, once you have exhausted your own people,
which you do very quickly you are then looking for capacity from
other organisations working to you.
205. The same question, assuming all is well—there
no strikes on, people are not on leave or sick—how many
bodies can you put on the problem in their kit?
(Mr Eastwood) In their kit? Looking in terms of the
kit and equipment, we have got 60 gas-tight suits and chemical
protection suits on top of that and as far as specialist personnel
go we have sufficient Gold and Silver commanders to keep a rolling
brief in respect of that and also at tactical level sufficient
officers for command. Like I said before, we can draw in very,
very quickly, we are that sort of organisation.
206. My recollection, having gone through this
with Nottinghamshire Fire Service, is depending on the conditions
in which you are operating you have got about 45 minutes of air;
is that right?
(Mr Eastwood) About that. 45 minutes of air but 20
minutes' duration depending on the ambient temperatures and the
effect on the individual inside the suit.
207. This is not a criticism but they can only
operate for a very short period before you need reinforcements.
(Mr Eastwood) No, you replenish, turnover, you carry
sufficient spare cylinders. It depends on how physically exhausted
people get. In general terms it depends whether they are handling
people or excavating to get to people. After 20 minutes you replenish
and replace.
208. Turning to 145 Brigade, I do not know if
there is a spokesman from the brigade here, what discussions have
you had with the Commander of 145 Brigade about this sort of emergency?
(Mr Kernaghan) The Commander of 145 Brigade is Brigadier
Richard Morris based at Aldershot, I have a close working relationship
with Richard Morris probably facilitated by cross-training in
the past in other guises. He was very much involved in our multi-agency
exercise in February. He is bringing on line the Civil Contingency
Reaction Force concept, building up their ability to go live,
etc. He has taken proactive action to engage myself and other
chief constables to get support for his own training exercise.
He wants to cross-train so my junior commanders are working with
his personnel and vice versa. The 145 Home Counties Brigade and
Hampshire Constabulary have a very positive working relationship
even at this early stage.
209. Have the other agencies been in consultation
with the Brigade Commander?
(Mr Eastwood) For the obvious reasons that have been
alluded to already through the industrial dispute we work in very
close liaison.
210. On the CBRN side, on the civil emergency
side you have been in constant contact?
(Mr Eastwood) Not constant, frequent.
211. May I turn to the Brigade.
(Major Andrews) I am Simon Andrews, Chief of Staff
of 145 Brigade. I speak on behalf of my Brigade Commander, I have
been selected as the regional liaison officer. With regard to
CBRN the direction has only just come down from MO2 via land with
regard to the operating environment that servicemen will be involved
in in conjunction with the police and fire services. I do not
know if you are acquainted with the concept of the hot, the warm
and the cold CBRN environment, but servicemen would be able to
work within the cold and warm environments with operational IPE.
The operational capability has been delivered as of Monday and
it is delivered on a divisional basis. There are within the United
Kingdom three regional divisions, the Fourth Division covering
effectively the South East over to East Anglia, the Second Division,
which covers beyond to the north of East Anglia up to and including
Scotland, and the Fifth Division which includes the North West
moving down through Wales into the South West of the United Kingdom.
The fourth division therefore has its central location in the
siting of individual protection equipment based in Reading which
is central to the divisional area and is controlled by a territorial
unit which we command which is in our particular case the focus,
the core for our Civil Contingency Reaction Force. There are 500
sets of individual protection equipment. There is redundancy within
those amounts—
212. May I interrupt, 500 sets for your brigade?
(Major Andrews) No sir, for the division, held by
the regional division for whatever forces are allocated by MO2
to react to a MACC or MACP event. It may be regular forces who
are assigned and therefore as a consequence those regular forces
may get that operational equipment, bearing in mind that regular
troops do not hold operational IPE as a norm. Your comment about
your respirator being in your loft—
213. Not my loft.
(Major Andrews) In your ready room at home, your canister
of course is not operational. Your respirator might be but your
canister is not up-to-date. You would be issued that as you were
mobilised.
214. Could I finish, Chairman, how are you getting
on with the Civil Contingency Reaction Force? How close to readiness
is it?
(Major Andrews) It reached the designated initial
operational capability at 31 December last year. An element of
command and control has been put in place. We had identified some
elements of not just the infantry and the Territorial core unit
but the other reserve forces that are going to reinforce it and
provide the maximum numbers as far as the capability goes, so
we have achieved that and that pretty much nationally was the
case. We are required to achieve what is called a full operational
capability by 31 December this year. If necessary I can give you
those details as to what that represents.
215. Is it fully recruited?
(Major Andrews) No sir, the aspiration is that each
of the Civil Contingency Reaction Forces would be 500 personnel.
That is entirely dependent on the regional brigade and the number
of reserve forces within that regional brigade. We at our estimate
at the moment would say 300.
216. When do you reckon to be fully operationally
ready?
(Major Andrews) 31 December 2003 is our fully operational
capability due date.
Mr Hancock
217. When we were taking evidence on this, the
Minister gave us an assurance, I think it was him or your boss,
suggesting that the 500 people would not be predominantly Territorials.
(Major Andrews) They will be a mixture of all reserve
forces. The Civil Contingency Reaction Force will be based around
the corps of a TA infantry battalion and therefore it is likely
that the TA will provide most of the numbers because it is simple
to do so. However, it was never the aspiration that the Civil
Contingency Reaction Force was going to be entirely formed from
Territorial Army troops, whether infantry battalion, royal electrical
or mechanical engineers or anybody else. It was always the aspiration
that it should be comes from the reserve forces, the Royal Auxiliary
Air Force, the Royal Naval Reserve, the Royal Marines Reserve.
218. Is it satisfactory that the kit should
held by the Territorial Army at Reading?
(Major Andrews) The reason for that, sir, is the United
Kingdom Commander-in-Chief Committee (Home) that is effectively
Commander-in-Chief (Land) has been designated as the focal point
for the armed forces for what we call integrated contingency planning,
consequent management tasks if you like, and he is the focal point
for that and he has designated that the Army's regional chain
of command, that is the regional division—Fourth, Second
and Fifth Divisions and the regional brigades, of which mine is
one of three within the Fourth Division, are responsible for the
focus for integrated contingency planning within the United Kingdom
for the armed forces and consequently we as regional brigades
and regional forces support the civil authority whoever the lead
civil authority is.
219. What is the target call-out time then from
a decision being made for that kit to be released into wider use?
What is the target?
(Major Andrews) I think there were two questions there,
the first with regard to the ability of the Civil Contingency
Reaction Force to react, the anticipated timescale. Although we
have yet to prove it (some other divisions have exercised this
already), it is six hours for what is called the reconnaissance
group, that is the commanding officers and his company commanders,
to assess the task and think through the planning prior to issuing
orders to troops, and it is anticipated that in 12 hours we would
hope at least 100 people would be available.
Patrick Mercer: Is that six plus 12?
Chairman: Sorry to interrupt but perhaps
you could write to us on these figures.
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