Examination of Witness(Questions 20-39)
MR IVAN
LEWIS, MP
MONDAY 25 NOVEMBER 2002
Chairman
20. Did you seen the debate on Thursday on FE
where this was made by many speakers in the debate, exactly Paul's
point, increasingly even when you have vocational courses they
are made more theoretical and less hands on, that is one of the
real problems existing in the skills sector.
(Mr Lewis) Chairman, I do not want Mr Holmes to think
I regard him as a dinosaur, nor I do regard many people working
in that service who do a good job. I think it is a point employers
made recently that the advice is to go down the academic and conventional
route, it is not balanced and that is why connexions are so important.
Answering the question, I agree with you that the design, the
content and the assessment of vocational qualifications is something
that we need to do a lot better on in this country, it is one
of the initiatives the new chief executive of QCAs is designated
to look at. He is charged with looking at that particular issue.
One of the things I would like to see is much closer involvement
of employers in the design of those kind of qualifications. What
I would not like to see is a return to the days when vocational
qualifications were seen as Mickey Mouse and low status and not
of very high quality, you do not want to see that either, no member
of this Committee wants to see that. We have to get the balance
right. If they are the same as academic learning experiences then
there is a real question mark.
Valerie Davey
21. My conversation in Bristol last week was
with an officer from the LSC who is saying, why has the Government
not given 11 to 16 year old schools more incentives simply on
the basis of retention and continuity. In other words, youngsters
who are going on to college, who are doing NVQs, perhaps a year
later, it may take them longer, but they get no credit for retention,
for keeping those youngsters on in education post 16. Other schools
have incentives for keeping them to do A-levels. 11 to 16 schools
in the context of 14-19 agenda perhaps you were suggesting need
that kind of incentive. It is a different way of looking at exactly
the same situation which Meg is relating, from a Bristol setting,
a different city, but the same issue is being raised by people
in a different context.
(Mr Lewis) I think I have acknowledged it is a reasonable
view. If we cut across all of the objectives, all of the targets,
where do we most struggle as a country, where it matters the most
is that far too many of our young people drop out at the age of
16, we are about third or fourth worse in terms of OECD. We have
to look at a consistent, cohesive policy response to that problem.
As I said, the policy framework, the financial regime, the targets
and the performance measurements have to match and there has to
be a synergy. As we are moving towards a new system and a new
approach our job is to bring that together. You make a point about
people being given longer. One of the things the Green Paper talked
about is acceleration but also working at the pace of the individual
if that meant going slower. It was far more about building a curriculum
and opportunities round the needs of an individual young person
rather than saying, here is a narrow box you either fit into that
or you fail. That is the kind of system that we need to move to.
Chairman
22. Can we come back to the National Skills
Strategy, bearing in mind the questions that you have already
been asked who is on this strategy, who is devising it? Who are
the people?
(Mr Lewis) Who are essentially the guilty people in
the future! I have been determined from the beginning this should
not be a DfES skills strategy. I have been determined that the
DfES should be the lead, should be driving forward the skills
agenda in the way that it has driven forward the schools agenda,
we are the Department for Education and Skills. I am very clear
that the Department is keen to ensure that skills—and the
new Secretary of State has made this point, and the previous Secretary
of State in the last few months—have to be given more of
a priority and taken more seriously in the Department. Chairman,
you quite rightly said, what about the customer, what about the
SME, the business and the learner? It has to be a coherent government,
lifelong learning approach to skills. The key departments in that
process are DWP, DTI and the Treasury. We have a group of ministers
who meet on a regular basis to drive that forward, that involves—
23. How many times have you met so far?
(Mr Lewis) On two occasions.
24. You announced this decision to have this
Working Party when?
(Mr Lewis) To have a National Skills Strategy I suspect
we announced it about July, just before the recess.
25. Who else is on it? Four departments, we
have seen the list.
(Mr Lewis) There are also officials working on a day-to-day
basis together.
26. Anybody else?
(Mr Lewis) We have a Skills Strategy, a wider group
to advise us. One of the things is on skills we have a lot to
learn, we need to get input. Chris Humphries who chaired the Skills
Task Force is a member of that group, as well as officials from
other departments, we have business representatives and trade
union representatives.
27. The Skills Task Force reported when?
(Mr Lewis) Two years ago.
28. We had the Skills Task Force reporting and
now we have another organisation with the same man as one of the
key advisers who cannot get its act together until June. It does
seem to us listening to you, Minister, that you are pushing water
uphill here. You get the feeling when you talk about skills there
you have a broom cupboard in the Department, you have a tiny number
of civil servants and nobody, because some would say it is a very
elitist, snobbish department always concerned with the higher
skills and vocational skills are not really their sort of thing,
you are having a real uphill journey here. Why are you so slow?
If everyone is not fighting and biffing you round the Department
why is the skills strategy so slow in emerging?
(Mr Lewis) The Skills Task Force said that there needs
to be a variety of things done, one of the things that came out
of the Skills Task Force was the formulation of the Learning and
Skills Council, that is a national organisation, it has forty-seven
arms, as you well know, and it takes time to get that right. One
of the criticisms made time and time again, quite rightly, by
this Committee is that Government is rushing in with initiatives,
they are not thought through, there is not a decision-making process
that makes sense, there is not adequate consultation and involvement
with some of the key partners outside Government, it is a very
in-house development. We are also criticised for the fact that
we do things department by department rather that in a joined-up
way. Here we put in place a clear set of objectives, a clear time
scale, a clear structure to deliver it and a pltcommitment both
at a ministerial level and an official level for this to be, for
the first time, an across government strategy. I do not regard
that as a slow process, I regard that as responsible and prudent.
29. It is slow because you started the idea
in July and you only had two meetings. How many meetings has Chris
Humphries and his group had?
(Mr Lewis) Chris has only just joined the group, that
has had two meetings.
30. I am sorry, Minister, you can see the frustration
on members of this Committee, certainly on my part, when you originally
wrote to me as Chairman of the Committee you said the ILA Mark
II will be put off until June because the National Skills Strategy
could not possibly report until then. Members of this Committee
might suggest that given the present track record of delivering
these reports on time it will never arrive in June. I do not know
if you are a betting man, Minister, would you like to be put serious
money on it?
(Mr Lewis) Yes.
31. This coming June?
(Mr Lewis) Yes. The point is that I actually think
one of the legitimate criticisms is we need to have a consistency
coherence for the way we develop policy if you want a good policy
at the end of it. I said that we would have a Skills Strategy
in June that feeding into that would be the review of the funding
of adult learning. It would be a nonsense to produce a National
Skills Strategy and then, as was proposed, a few months later
to come out with the conclusion and review of adult learning.
Separate to that and in advance of all of that to announce an
ILA successor scheme would have been irresponsible, it would have
been dangerous in terms of the policy that would have resulted
from it and we would have failed to really grasp what I believe
is a—I know it is a phrase that is sometimes overused—once
in a generation opportunity to get a coherent National Skills
Strategy. I do not apologise for the time scale.
32. Ministers have told us, secretaries of state
have told us you already have a strategy on skills, you have the
biggest quango that reports to this Committee, the Learning and
Skills Council, which is supposed to be in charge of it. What
we wonder is what is this National Skills Strategy going to come
up with, is it going to come up with the abolition of LSCs? We
do listen to rumours on the grapevine, people in the Department
are not happy with the Learning and Skills Council, are we going
to have more uprooting of major skills in this country? What is
going on in terms, what will be different in your Report? Tell
us, what sort of thing could come out in a National Skills Strategy
that we do not already know and structures we do not already have?
(Mr Lewis) You may be suspicious, I have just visited
each of the English regions, that was deliberate, I wanted to
start this consultation in a real world with real people on a
day-to-day basis on either customers or providers of the skills
agenda. As a consequence of that some of my ideas and views on
this are emerging. I can give you a list of things I believe the
National Skills Strategy should be about, first of all it needs
to add value to what is already happening in the regions, not
simply seem to replicate, duplicate or undermine that.
33. You would come up with a partnership between
RDAs and Learning and Skills Councils who are at the moment not
joined up?
(Mr Lewis) We are going to have four pilots in terms
of four RDAs areas where we are going to look at local Learning
and Skills Councils in each of those four RDAs and bring those
budgets together and make sure they are spent in a cohesive way.
That is going to happen during the course of the next few months,
the establishment of those pilots. It has to do that. It has to
be Government-wide, not just DfES. I believe we are putting in
place a system to do that. I believe at a national level we can
look at skill shortages which specifically affect sectors, we
have crucial sectors in our economy which have serious skill shortages
and we need to work within sector skills councils to really say
what are our focused objectives in a realistic period of time
to begin to tackle those skills challenges. I personally believe
that is the point that Ms Munn and Ms Davey made about vocational
education and training. I think as part of the strategy we have
to identify and there are various building blocks, 14-19 is only
one, how we change the culture in this country and what elements
we can put into the strategy that begin to change the culture
in terms of vocational education and training. We have to reduce
the bureaucracy and simplify the system. I believe we have to
be more employer friendly, qualifications framework unitisation
is one example of that. Employers tell us time and time again
that the existing qualification framework does not meet their
needs. We have to sort out employer engagement in a way that we
have not before, that has to be across Government. We have to
be clear about how we are going to get to the SMEs which are the
growing path of the private sector. The other point is that we
always talk about skills in the context of the private sector.
In terms of the record investment that is going into public services
at the beginning of the 21st century we have serious skills shortages.
The final point, the review of the funding of adult learning,
feeding into that is, what is the appropriate balance between
the contributions of the individual, the employer, and the State
in terms of the financial contribution in the investment for skill
development? My own personal view is that, of course, we welcome
new investment and the extra resources, we have to ensure that
we are spending the existing money we have in the system appropriately.
34. You mentioned exactly the point that we
are concerned about, you said that there are serious skill shortages.
What sort of Government is this, what sort of Department is this
who can say we will tell you what we are going do in June? If
there are serious skill shortages surely we should be addressing
them now. If any of your advisers or any of your civil servants
have some positive ideas on that most of the people who are working
in this country suffering from skill shortages, whether electrician
or plumbers—that are so dear to the heart of Mr Pollard
who is now with us—and highly trained technicians right
across the board, what puzzles us, why this long time of gestation
to June? Who was it, was it you, Minister, or your Secretary of
State who said, this can only be done by next June, it cannot
be done in a hurry to Christmas or it could not come through in
February, it has to be polished and furnished and ready for June.
Why June?
(Mr Lewis) It was my decision and it was based on
a reasonable period of time to get the policy right.
35. You only had two meetings, Minister. I can
work it out for you, you are only going to have five meetings
before June.
(Mr Lewis) Can I try and respond. The point is the
assumption based on your comments are that we are sat here, we
abandon all of this tremendous work we have been doing over the
past two years, put everything on hold and nothing is happening.
We have announced one of the most exciting programmes of reform
in further education, we have created a new network of sector
skills council, we have these Learndirect centres, UK Online centres,
University for Industry doing a really good job in terms of ITC
getting people back into learning that way. The Adult Basic Skills
target is on track, that is giving 7 million people who cannot
read and write the opportunity to do that. Those are all of the
things that are happening. We are about to announce Pathfinders
on 14-19 year old proposals. There is a tremendous amount going
on in terms of skills. What I want to ensure is that it is coherent,
that we are getting best value for money and that we ensure that,
in your words, we appropriately and adequately tackle those skills
shortages which are holding back the competitiveness and the productivity
of our economy.
Chairman: One more point before Jonathan comes
in. Privately, sometimes ministers believe their own propaganda.
When you go around the country talking to people who work for
NTOs and Learning and Skills Councils and the new Sector Skills
Councils, they are demoralised because they say "Do we have
to wait until June to find out about future? Are they going to
abolish us?" There is a very high level of demoralisation,
I have to tell you, amongst people who used to work for National
Training Organisations, even some who switched to Sector Skills
Councils. Sometimes ministers do believe their own propaganda.
Do not answer that. Jonathan?
Jonathan Shaw: I wonder after all the various
houses that the Chairman has threatened to lock you up in you
might get an NVQ in escapology. The Chairman is having a go at
you here, Minister.
Chairman: That is my job.
Jonathan Shaw
36. He is painting a doom and gloom picture
and you are responding robustly by setting out your stall and
what you hope to achieve. You have been travelling around the
country, I do not know if you have been locked up drinking coffee
in country houses, I am sure you have not been—
(Mr Lewis) Nor was the Chairman to get me out of the
toilet on those occasions.
37. I do not want to expand on that. If you
want to bring that up, that is up to you. If there were three
messages that you came back with to Whitehall after visiting the
country that were ringing in your head that the various sectors,
the public and private sectors, were saying are not going well,
tell us what they are. If you can identify other things that you
have not mentioned, three things that are going well that people
told you about, not that you were going out to get an endorsement
of a policy that you already knew was working well, tell us the
three things that are really not working well, some specifics
rather than the Chairman's broad brushes.
(Mr Lewis) I think, first of all, when organisations
go through serious structural change, and we challenge the way
things have been doing previously, ie National Training Organisations,
the Sector Skills Councils, it is bound to be that some of the
people who work within those sectors are not very happy about
it and I think we have got to recognise that. In direct response
to Mr Shaw's comments, in a sense I think I answered it. First
of all, a much greater synergy between what the education and
training system offers and what the customer needs. That applies
to individual learners and to employers specifically. People want
a joined-up government-wide approach, they do not want a departmental
by departmental skills strategy.
38. Everyone says that.
(Mr Lewis) My job is to make that happen and that
is why I believe it is going to take at least until June to produce
the National Skills Strategy and Delivery Plan. The other thing
that people desperately want is simplification of the system,
making it more user friendly, making it more understandable, and
from an SME point of view more accessible. The other point that
people were very, very strong on was this qualification framework,
making sure the qualification framework is more consistent with,
more flexible, more unitised, more appropriate in terms of employer
needs in particular.
39. Did anyone say "The last thing we want
is another gimmick, what we want is the time to put in place a
proper strategy for the long-term. Do not just give us another
flash in the pan"? Did anyone say that to you?
(Mr Lewis) I said it to them and they repeated it
back to me wherever I went. The point I would make is the issue
I identified—I do not want to go through it again—is
the National Skills Strategy has got to add value or it will all
be meaningless to what is going on already in terms of the Fraser
process, for example, in each of the regions. My job is to say
that at a local level the RDAs, the Learning and Skills Councils,
the providers, the business community, are in many cases doing
a really good job now in terms of driving partnerships forward
but there are still significant barriers to them being able to
achieve their objectives on the skills agenda. My job as the Minister
responsible for it nationally is first of all to identify what
those barriers are by talking to them honestly and frankly, which
I have done and will continue to do in the next few months. Secondly,
produce a Skills Strategy and Delivery Plan that does not bottle
out or cop out of those difficult issues but actually seeks to
address them one by one. I would say to the Chairman that he understandably
would be a bit cynical because ministers say this whenever they
appear on this Committee but I would say that if you look at the
Further Education Reform Programme, which I was proud to be involved
in developing with Mrs Hodge, every single issue and barrier that
the FE sector over many years has said to this Committee is a
problem for our sector, that strategy addresses each and every
one of them. It may not address them in the way that everybody
wants them to but it did not bottle out or cop out of the difficult
issues. I will guarantee to this Committee—I may regret
this, but I do not think I will—
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