Select Committee on Education and Skills Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180-199)

MONDAY 28 OCTOBER 2002

KATHLEEN TATTERSALL, JOHN KERR AND RON MCLONE

  180. But you are adamant there is nothing in your existing systems that is at fault?
  (Mr Kerr) I am not adamant at all on that. The exam system is still essentially Victorian, it is a large number of pieces of paper; in our own exam board, it is 10 million marks, five million pieces of paper, scripts, in a large warehouse, there is little technology that has been applied there. Certainly, the question for me is investment, who is going to pay for that investment and bring technology in; otherwise, we are going to continue with errors and mistakes, which clearly we will strive to minimise, and it is important that we do so, but there are limited reserves within the exam boards, as charitable organisations.

Jonathan Shaw

  181. If you had the opportunity to pinpoint what you do, if you had the opportunity to pinpoint one particular event, over the course of the summer, that would have been done differently, what would that be?
  (Mr Kerr) From Edexcel's point of view, I was very, very pleased with the results this summer, given the publicity surrounding the board earlier in the year.

Chairman

  182. You were pleased to be out of the public eye?
  (Mr Kerr) I was very pleased to be out of the public eye. I was very pleased to see that we delivered the results on time and that we delivered them accurately. So, actually, this whole grading issue came as a bit of a surprise to us. In terms of what I would want to change, piloting of the A2s would have helped enormously.

Paul Holmes

  183. You talked about the half of your business that goes without any comments, any problem, all the vocational courses; is that because the vocational courses are essentially criterion referenced, and they are not bedevilled all the time by the harp back to the old days of norm reference in A level, and the idea that if there are any improvements in grade passes it must be because things are getting easier?
  (Mr Kerr) I think some of the aspects from the B-TEC qualifications are that they are essentially assessed by the teachers, the scripts never leave the college, we have an internal verification system, we have an external verification system, teachers and lecturers have a great deal of confidence in applying these qualifications, and they feel confident and they pass on that confidence to the children.

Chairman

  184. When, in my introductory remarks, I suggested that most people do not really want to know much about examining boards, I said that in the sense that they want a quiet confidence but they do not want really to hear exam results questioned, as they always are, round about August, which comes at a particularly slow news time. Is part of what you were saying, in terms of your method of explaining, or your mission to explain, if you had a mission to explain, how would it be better done, because in view of the very good article by Len Masterman, regarding, I think he said, "How the papers saw it: press coverage of the A-level controversy (up to the publication of the Tomlinson inquiry)," and if there are ridiculous articles in the Daily Mail, and Simon Jenkins in The Times, and then Melanie Phillips, again in the Daily Mail, those are articles that are really not based on any reality, you could have explained, how would you have come back and explained yourself?
  (Mr Kerr) We get the press we deserve; it is our job to try to educate the press, it is our job to make clear what we do, how we do it, and that is bearing fruit.

  185. And you could see it all going away from you, in the summer, that run of articles, because it was all moving away from you, was it not? Who should have stepped in and said, "Actually, these are the facts; this is what's happening here," who should have done that, you, the QCA, who?
  (Mr Kerr) Referring again, an independent regulator, a regulator who was respected by the public, could stand up and say, "Don't worry; these are the issues, we can resolve it." But I think also a Government spokesman standing up and saying that they had confidence in the exam system, confidence in the exam results, would have gone a long way to allay press speculation.

  186. So the Government did not give you enough support; the Government should be out there, batting for that?
  (Mr Kerr) I would prefer to see the Government taking forward the lead in promoting the qualifications, and promoting confidence in the qualifications.

  Chairman: Mr Kerr, thanks very much. And can I now have Dr McLone back in the seat.

  Dr Ron McLone, Chief Executive, OCR, was further examined.

  187. Dr McLone, the reason I really wanted to get you on your own was because you are a consensus builder, and I felt that I wanted really to find out more in depth what you individually thought about what had been going on in the last couple of months, and also your view of how you could better do your job. How do you think you can better do your job as an examining board?
  (Dr McLone) I think that it is absolutely essential that we have a clear remit in which to operate, given by a regulator. I also believe that what we have in the system that we have got is something, as John has said, which is not transparent, and that we need to move on the examination system we have got in this country to make it more transparent, but also to bring it into the 21st century. That will make it a better job.

Mr Turner

  188. I am still worried about your chart, Dr McLone, because Val asked you, essentially, were you arguing with the 50/50 split or not, and you said, no, you were not, and then proceeded, in my view, to do so, by saying it is still 40/60. And, putting it at its simplest, what we are saying is, an A level is worth £1, an AS level, according to the Secretary of State, is worth 50 pence, but, according to you, it is worth 40 pence?
  (Dr McLone) I do apologise, if I have not explained it properly. What I am saying is that we would have preferred it to be 40 pence, because that would have been a recognition that it was not half an A level. But we worked on it being 50/50, in terms of having to get a balance between the two, yet it is something which is not worth 50 pence but you are having to call it 50 pence; that being so, you have got to have something which really should be 60 pence, and you are going to call that 50 pence. All of that means that you have got this complexity of where you are at; and I am sorry if the arithmetic does not add up, but I think it does.

Chairman

  189. I think we are getting to the heart of this problem.
  (Dr McLone) We have to apply 50/50, and, in my view, and I think in lots of other people's, the 50/50 meant the A2 was harder than A level, otherwise it did not stack up.

Mr Turner

  190. Ms Tattersall, I think, used an expression relating to the maturation of the candidates, maybe she did not but somebody did; no, I wrote it down, actually, on the basis of what she said. This is making assumptions about the maturation of the candidates over the two-year period, is it not, and I still do not see how you can say, on the one hand, that your chart shows 40 pence because the student in the lower sixth is only broadly capable of achieving a lower standard, and therefore you have got to top it up with a greater achievement in the upper sixth?
  (Dr McLone) Indeed; and that, I think, is part of the flaw in the system, which we referred to earlier. And, also, if I go back to my analogy with the university world, which I was in, if we had said it was 50/50 we would have been asking too much of the final year students, that is absolutely true, but the 40/60 made that balance work. The fact that you say 50/50 means that you are really asking an awful lot, because you are asking something that is not A level; it is this comparison with what we were doing before which is the problem, because many students in the modular course took these three units in the first year sixth before, yes, and they were A level standard, by definition. Now we have them taking it, and we say, "No, it's not A level standard." That has been the problem; it is a flawed process, and it has been flawed, I think, because we have not had the right definition, and the definition should come from the regulator.

  191. But when answering David Chaytor, you were asked about communication with the QCA, effectively, over the last two years; as I read it, it was before the last two years began that the failure of communication, or, at least, of agreement, took place?
  (Dr McLone) The roots of the problem certainly happened then. What needed to be done, in my view, was, over that time, to have recognised that the roots of the problem were going to be difficult. Now we spent a lot of time, of course, in 2001, focusing on AS properly, because we have not run A2; and, properly, I think we got AS right, it was welcome. What we did not do, and what I think everybody feels we should have done, is have some exemplar material, so that everybody understood what A2 was, we did not have it, and if I go back and think about it, collectively, or individually, I think, driven by QCA, we should have had exemplar material.

Valerie Davey

  192. You say there was not pressure from QCA; was there pressure from the universities, in any way, in any way over this new process?
  (Dr McLone) I would not like to say. There was certainly no pressure on the individual awarding, absolutely not; but, in terms of that 50/50 decision, I suspect it was a contributory factor, yes.

  193. So universities, which we have not really mentioned very much, are the other factor in determining how they value the outcome of your exams?
  (Dr McLone) I think there was a concern within the universities, and, as I said, I come from the sector, I can understand it, there was a concern about what on earth AS was supposed to be; and if it was not valued at 50, I think the understanding of the universities was that it would not have been something that they could value. That must have been, in the end, a political decision, of one sort or another, and I am using `p' with a small `p', not a large `P'. But, nonetheless, that must have had an effect on the final decision about whether it is 40/60 or 50/50; they tend to be decisions that are not made on the assessment structure but on other dimensions.

  194. So where does the university influence come into this debate; is there any debate from your Council, or the QCA, or is it all done then by the Government?
  (Dr McLone) I would say it was done directly, myself, it would not have been through our Council; directly to QCA or to Government, I would think.

  195. To QCA or Government?
  (Dr McLone) Or. I would not know.

  196. Are we saying that this is another body that does not understand the system that you are operating?
  (Dr McLone) We need a lot more transparency for everybody. I think the business about whether the AS will count as one point, or not, was something which certainly did not get thought through alongside what that would mean if you had put it in terms of assessment structure; and, of course, there is an argument which says the two should be divorced anyway.

Chairman

  197. But, Dr McLone, the worry the Committee would have, from your evidence today, particularly after your remarks just now, would be that here is a flawed system, you have said it is a flawed system; on the one hand, some of your colleagues have said, "But we've got great confidence in the new team in QCA," but you are saying, "It's a flawed system, we have not said it right, the super-tanker is on its way, kids are doing this AS level, they are on their way, they are on the new A level system, they are on their way, very soon we'll be in June again." But you are saying you are happy with this system. On the one hand, you are saying, "It's a deeply flawed system, we're all on the way to the next disaster, the next iceberg;" what are you saying?
  (Dr McLone) I do understand the question, and I think there is a tension; there is a tension between picking up plants, as I said, and inspecting the roots, because you want to embed something that is already going. There are flaws which I believe will be put right through Ken Boston's procedures over the next few months; those are the flaws, and that is the way it must be put right.

  198. Right; so the QCA can get it right. We are not suggesting that you pick it up by the roots and replace it by the International Baccalaureate immediately, but what we are saying is, you have identified the flaw but you have not actually said, at which I am surprised, how you will put it right, by next year?
  (Dr McLone) By next year, I think we will put it right, by talking to Ken Boston's task group and Ken Boston's Programme Board and the arrangements he is getting right, and Tomlinson's inquiry, I think we will be looking to get things out that can match next year and get it on the road. I think there are longer-term issues that we will have to address, like six/four units, because, eventually, there is really too much assessment going on, and it is overburdening our teachers and students.

  Chairman: Dr McLone, we will have you back to talk about that at greater length; thank you. Kathleen Tattershall, can I ask you for the final spot.

  Kathleen Tattersall, Director-General, AQA, was further examined.

  199. Can we just, seamlessly, sort of move from that question to Dr McLone to you, in the sense that, right at the end there, he said, "far too many examinations." As I say, the Committee has been to New Zealand, where they are really at the opposite end, hardly any examination and testing, a large number of educators there saying, "We ought to have more appropriate and accurate evaluation of how students are doing; we don't have it." And they are looking at our system, they do not want our system because they think we have gone to an extreme, but they would like something. Are we at the extreme, should we be fighting back and getting less examination, I know it is difficult, you are in the exam business, are we overexamining our students in this country?
  (Ms Tattersall) I think we are externally overexamining our students, and that, I think, is where the problem lies; and certainly there has been a trend to external examining, over the last 14, 15 years, which actually has swept away some very good coursework-based examinations. So I distinguish between assessing of students and externally examining our students, and I think the balance has tipped too far to external assessment, and, as I said earlier, that brings with it some problems, such as recruiting examiners to fulfil our requirements. So I would prefer to see the pendulum swing somewhat back, to enable teacher assessment to take place, but, in order for that to happen we would have to recognise that there would have to be a lot of training of teachers, for a start, in assessment methods, there would have to be very robust systems of moderation, and there would have to be, I think, a turnaround of public perception of the value of teacher assessment, because that was where it went wrong 14 or 15 years ago, when people really started questioning whether that was valuable.


 
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