Examination of Witness (Questions 160-179)
WEDNESDAY 18 DECEMBER 2002
MR DAVID
MILIBAND MP
160. You were talking about local consent and
parental consent as being an important plank of the current policy,
but you only allow the parents to vote by and large who benefit
from the continuing existence of grammar schools. You do not allow
the parents at a local secondary modern whose children suffer
from the existence of the grammar schools to vote. You do not
allow the parents of junior feeder schools who go to the secondary
moderns instead of in the grammar system to vote, so it is a very
one-sided system of parental consent.
(Mr Miliband) These things were debated extensively
during the passage of the 1997-98 legislation and obviously there
are balances to be struck at every stage. The Government felt
it struck the right balance for reasons that were extensively
set out at the time. Our belief is that it is incumbent on us
to make sure that significant changes to local admissions do have
parental consent and we have tried to articulate that in a set
of regulations and rules. We are now three or four years into
seeing them operate. We think that was the right way of organising
it.
161. You made a speech at Glasgow University
on 19 September.
(Mr Miliband) You are all quoting the speech.
Jonathan Shaw
162. We were all there.
(Mr Miliband) I know you were not. This suggests that
my publicity machine is not as effective as I thought.
Valerie Davey
163. It was a very comprehensive (dare I say)
speech.
(Mr Miliband) Am I allowed to interject a moment of
levity into our proceedings? When I gave this speech in Glasgow
University it was just as the A-level imbroglio was getting particularly
exciting. I was giving this lecture at seven o'clock and the Vice-Chancellor
came up to the lectern to introduce me and said he was delighted
that the Schools Minister had come all the way from London to
talk about co-operation and what we could learn from each other
and he said, "I would just like to reassure the Minister
that I have just listened to the six o'clock news and I can confirm
he still is the Schools Minister." It had me feeling for
my pager in a rather nervous way, so the Glasgow lecture is imprinted
on my mind as well as yours.
Paul Holmes
164. In the speech you praised the existence
of different systems within the UK—Wales, Scotland, England,
Northern Ireland—because you could learn across the borders
and so forth. We have already heard that we might look at Northern
Ireland where it is said that results are better because they
have a selective system, although the Northern Irish are looking
at scrapping the 11-plus and grammar schools. What about looking
at the Scottish system where 96% of the children go to comprehensive
schools? They have better exam results than we do and they have
a higher staying-on rate for higher education and more respect
for education.
(Mr Miliband) We should certainly look at the Scottish
system. They obviously have many things that are different in
their system, not just the degree to which there are comprehensive
schools. They have a different post-16 system. They have a different
educational history. I was astonished to learn when I was there
that 25% of Edinburgh pupils go to private schools, so it is not
quite as comprehensive as I had thought, at least in that city.
Of course we should learn from them. One of the reasons I went
to Scotland on my first "foreign" visit was that we
should be learning from different systems.
Mr Simmonds
165. I am sure, Minister, the people of Lincolnshire
will be delighted to hear that you are not unilaterally going
to shut down the grammar school system in Lincolnshire which does
have fairly universal support. One of the issues I want to pick
up on is the parental choice. How does the diversity agenda and
specialist schools programme increase parental choice, particularly
bearing in mind your comments about the schools' ability to select?
(Mr Miliband) In my view choice only exists when you
have got choice of good options, so the first thing about parental
choice is that there have to be good schools for them to choose
from. If they are presented with a choice between a good school
and a bad school it is no choice at all. Secondly, within that
the fact that we will have schools with a range of specialisms,
that some parents if they wish can choose a faith school for their
kids, those are important parts of our pluralistic education system.
You made reference to the specialist schools being able to select
up to 10%, although, to repeat the point, 95-plus% do not do so.
Choice is extended to the extent to which there are good options
on offer and so the school improvement programme and the specialist
programme are both relevant to that.
166. Is parental choice though part of the driving
force behind the diversity agenda?
(Mr Miliband) The central focus for the diversity
agenda is to help raise school standards. That is a way of giving
parents choice. There is a separate question which is to what
extent does parental choice contribute to the diversity, or at
any rate contribute to school improvement? Certainly it is a very
strong signal to schools if parents do not want their kids to
go there and schools with falling rolls are giving off a very
clear market signal about their weakness. Of course, the difficulty
is that in many parts of the country there is not choice of schools
because of geography or whatever and we have to find other mechanisms
of intervening to tackle problems.
167. I accept that point. Certainly in rural
areas in my own constituency there would be tremendous issues
regarding the point you have just made, but what about the diversity
and parental choice within the curriculum within a particular
school?
(Mr Miliband) Yes, that is important. Andrew, we did
not talk about that at all when we were talking about diversity.
I think it is a really important point that Charles Clarke made.
It is also a point that I made in my first speech to the NAHT.
It is striking in this country that within-school variation in
pupil performance is four times as great as between-school variation
in pupil performance. That partly reflects the fact that in comparison
to some countries we have more comprehensive intake, but only
partly reflects that. Within-school variation sets up a very clear
agenda about teaching quality. There is then a separate issue
about how we offer more choice to pupils within schools. Parents
can have an influence on that but it is obviously up to pupils
in the end to make their choices about studies. We have taken
the view that there is a need for significantly greater curriculum
flexibility at 14-plus. I do not know if that is what you were
beginning to refer to. We certainly want to free up the curriculum
at that stage and part of the announcement today was about that,
although we are going to have to come forward with wider ranging
proposals in the new year in relation to 14-19. I think that that
flexibility for pupils to make choices within schools is a good
thing and something we should promote.
168. How do you balance that potential different
streaming of pupils within a particular school to generate that
additional diversity sit comfortably with the other comments that
you made earlier in your introduction about trying to cut down
the workload of teachers? Presumably you are adding to the potential
workload of teachers by creating these different—
(Mr Miliband) We have got an expanding teaching profession,
I am pleased to say. There are 20,000 more teachers than there
were in 1997, 9,000 more in the last year. I think that vision
of an expanding teaching force is a good one but it should be
complemented by a wider range of support professionals. A hard
question for us, which may be the generic one you are asking,
is that in a rural area where there is one school is it a danger
if you have a science college and in fact you think your kids
have got an aptitude for music? Is that what you are driving at?
169. What I am trying to establish is how you
are going to deliver the diversity of curriculum within a particular
school.
(Mr Miliband) A school has responsibility to hire
the appropriate number of teachers. Personally I would say the
opposite, that, far from workforce reform threatening the delivery
of a diverse curriculum, it actually supports it because it allows
teachers to bring into the classroom to support learning a range
of professionals who have skills that can contribute to the pupils'
learning. If I was coming here saying I wanted to reduce the number
of teachers and increase the number of support staff who do not
have QTS (qualified teacher status) qualification, then I think
you could say, "Hang on. This is going to reduce choice".
I am not saying that. I am saying we should increase the number
of teachers and increase the range of support staff.
170. I hear what you say, Minister. All of us,
and every single Member of Parliament, when we go to visit schools
in our constituencies, there is one theme that runs through what
teachers say to us, which is that they have too much workload.
Whether or not you believe what you have told us about 20,000
new teachers, and I am sure we can debate that although we will
not bother here today, there is no doubt that teachers say they
have got too much bureaucracy and too much paperwork to deal with.
What I am suggesting is that you are going to burden them with
additional work by creating this potential diversity, which I
approve of, within schools, but the two things do not seem to
sit comfortably side by side.
(Mr Miliband) Do you know what percentage of their
time teachers spend teaching?
171. It depends what role they have within the
school, obviously.
(Mr Miliband) It is about a third of teachers' time
that is spent teaching. You are right. A lot of their workload
is being bunged up with not just administrative tasks but with
other duties, some of them managerial but some of them, from exam
invigilation to shepherding pupils around the school, could be
done by other people. You do not need a teacher qualification
to invigilate an exam. Yes, there is a workload problem. No, it
is not caused by too much teaching. It is caused by too many other
tasks and that is what we want to reduce significantly. There
are different issues between the primary and the secondary sector,
obviously, which we are engaging with. I certainly do not see
that the development of a science specialism or a technology specialism
and which a school then develops itself in that area and hires
more teachers in that area, I do not see why that adds to teacher
workload. Why should it?
Valerie Davey: We need to move on. We
will leave that question hanging.
Mr Pollard
172. Minister, you were quoted in the St
Albans Observer on 23 September as saying, "There are
huge potential gains from diversity", and yet the Government
does not include Steiner or Montessori schools in that diversity,
and that is real diversity rather than variations on a theme which
is what you have been talking about so far.
(Mr Miliband) I pay particular attention to my media
profile in the St Albans area. I have had a meeting with the Steiner
Foundation and we are in serious discussion with them about whether
or not or how really, because I think there is positive commitment
on both sides, one or more of their schools could become part
of the mainstream schooling system. Given what we say about school
standards, we have to make sure that the contribution of Steiner
schools would be positive and there are some quite profound issues
raised about their approach to examinations and other matters
that make this quite a ticklish area, but I think there is a positive
commitment on both sides to see if we can do it. Of course, my
meeting with national representation of Steiner does not mean
we can click our fingers and create a school. This has got to
be something that a local authority or a local area wants to develop
and that is where the discussion is at the moment with a number
of local authorities who have expressed an interest. I would not
pretend to you it is without problems.
173. Is there any limit on the number of faith
schools that you would support? I am thinking particularly that
there is a worry outside that some faith schools could promulgate
racism and anti-Semitism.
(Mr Miliband) It would be disastrous if that was the
case, and the Government takes a number of steps to make sure
that is not the case. I certainly do not know of any faith school
that is promoting anti-semitism or racism.
174. There is a worry that extreme Muslim schools
could promulgate that sort of rubbish.
(Mr Miliband) One has to be very careful about damning
a whole religion or the adherents of a religion. There are now
14 Muslim schools. I would be very wary of saying that they have
a particular responsibility in this respect.
175. I was not talking about Muslim schools,
I was talking about the perception from others about Muslim schools.
(Mr Miliband) It is very important that all faith
schools deliver the National Curriculum, that they are inspected
in the appropriate way and that they live up to the standards
we would expect of a maintained school. Obviously there is widespread
scope for a laissez-faire attitude outside the maintained
sector and these schools are totally unregulated or much less
regulated outside the state sector. We do have a responsibility
to promote community cohesion, we cannot expect schools to do
it on their own and certainly we cannot expect them to do it on
their own within the school day and that is why the collaboration
across religious and other divides outside school hours is an
important part of the response we can make to the challenges that
a multi-faith, multi-cultural society faces.
176. We need consistency in the classroom. Many
schools have too many supply teachers. Certainly in my own area
we spend an awful lot of time recruiting supply teachers because
we cannot retain teachers. Teachers leaving after two or three
years is quite common for some of the reasons that Mark Simmonds
was saying earlier on. How do we retain our classroom teachers?
(Mr Miliband) I think the good news is that we have
an expanding teaching profession. We have had more applications
for teacher training than we have had for the last 15/20 years,
we have had 35,000 people coming in to teacher training—
177. Minister, with respect, the 20,000 that
you quoted is fine in global terms, but the reality is, if you
go around my constituency, that they are spending too much money
on supply teachers and their teachers are leaving after two or
three years. That is the situation on the ground.
(Mr Miliband) I understand that. Unless we are short
of time I would just like to answer the question by giving you
the general position.
178. I was not suggesting you knew exactly what
was going on in schools in my constituency.
(Mr Miliband) I want to do justice to the question
by addressing the point you are making because I do think the
overall picture is important. We have an expanding profession,
we have more people coming into teacher training. No less an authority
than The Guardian—who I think have left the room—said
that teaching is now the career change of choice in the jobs market.
We have significantly better paid teachers and I want to see them
better supported. That is not to say we do not have significant
pinch points around the system and those pinch points are reflected
in the large sums of money that are paid for recruitment and retention
advertising or for supply. I do not think it is a nationwide thing,
I think there are particular pinch points. There was the Ofsted
report about the quality of supply teaching which asked some important
questions about the way schools were inducting and using supply
teachers. It also pointed out that on average we had 2,000 fewer
supply teachers in the system every day this year than we did
in previous years. I never like to take one year as the be-all
and end-all, but that is suggested. There is no question in my
mind that we have to continue to be very competitive in the jobs
market to hold on to teachers especially beyond the three to five
year position that you referred to. One of the major changes that
has got very little coverage and certainly before I came a Minister
I had not appreciated the significance of is the shortening of
the pay spine blow the threshold, which sounds like a piece of
ghastly management jargon but actually in simple terms means that
teachers can expect about a 7 or 8% pay rise by increment every
year for the first five years in the profession, which is designed
specifically to promote retention in that critical three to five
year period. I do not think any members of the Committee represent
London constituencies, but there are particular problems with
recruitment and retention in London where teachers are paid approximately
£30,000 after they pass the threshold. In a particularly
high cost centre like London there are real struggles holding
on to teachers especially when they start a family. We have asked
the school teachers' review body to look particularly at that
extreme pinch point. I certainly do not deny there are problems
elsewhere and I hope what we are doing in general as well as specifically
can tackle them.
Jonathan Shaw
179. The quality of supply teachers does vary.
They are an important part of the workforce and provide the sort
of flexibility and cover necessary for schools. When you spoke
on the radio the other morning you referred to the kite-mark that
some agencies have. This Committee has asked two inspectors, Ofsted
and the Chief Inspector, whether they thought they had a role
in inspecting the agencies. At the moment if you are a headteacher
and a person is sent along you have got an emergency cover and
if they are not satisfactory you tell that agency please do not
send this guy along again. That might happen to that guy half
a dozen times. What does the Agency do about that? Should Ofsted
have a role? At the moment the agencies come under DTI legislation.
If you did a risk assessment in terms of the number of supply
teachers that there are you would find we are at a higher position
than we have been for a long time. Is there not a role for Ofsted
to ensure the quality of those agencies so that we can sort out
the good ones from the not so good ones?
(Mr Miliband) I spoke informally to the Chief Inspector
about this because we were in the same radio station on Monday
morning. It would take Ofsted into new areas if they were forced
to start looking at the employment status and regulation. I think
they would be very wary of that. I do not rule out change on the
educational side. Yes, there are problems with the school that
asks for an agency to supply someone and they are not good enough,
they feel they get no feedback and the person gets recycled. It
is worth pointing out that only one-third of the supply teachers
come through private agencies, two-thirds do not.
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